1h stab

[Nightmare798]

Even if there were 45% 2h/pole there would be only 22,5% of each. Not so big numbers anymore?
Perhaps some of them even use shield too? Hoplites?
And 1 of 10 shielder? Really?

indeed, shielders are extremely scarce lately, which is what led to the increase of ranged imo.

[Teeth]

Some people say that ALL 1h swords need a stab damage nerf and that 1h sword stabs outclass 2h swords. That is not true. There's only a FEW swords that have more stab damage, but they all have significantly less swing damage. The biggest difference between 1h stab and 2h stab damage would have to be (in my opinion) fighting style. As 1handers are so short, you are almost always moving forward when you fight. 2-handers usually strafe more when fighting as it's easier to use your longer weapon to attack opponents in unblockable areas. As the 1-hander is almost always moving forward, they utilize speed bonus more often. Speed bonus adds a significant boost to damage. Especially when combined with a held attack, you can do a FUCK-TON of damage even with low PS. This combined with pierce damage (which bypasses most of your armor) makes stabs hurt a lot. That is also why awlpikes (and all long, stabbing polearms) are so effective. As a support role, you're usually running at someone with a held attack and doing a fuckton of damage.

Maybe the difference in damage between 2h and pole/1h stabs has more to do with that the highest 2h stab damage is 26p and the highest 1h/pole stab damages are 31p/33p respectively? That is not a small difference.  Which is a problem because 1h should not do the same or even more damage than the other 2 classes, simply because 1h allows you to use a shield without penalties. Speed bonus and hold attacks are not used differently by these classes, at least not in any significant or constant way.

One question I have, is how come 1h stabs weren't seen as a problem way back in the day when everyone could do them, but they are such a huge problem now? My 1h actually does less damage at MW then it did back then. My only guess is that the playerbase is overall more skilled now than they were back then, and every decent 1-hander knows that it's all about abusing held attacks and speed bonus.

Multiple reasons for that:
- Every weapon could turn it's stabs at the speed of light, now it is just 1h that can do that.
- Regardless of the turnrate making it easier to use, the effective reach was still much shorter than it is now. You would still glance at the arse end of your animation, unlike now.
- People generally sucked at blocking and sideswings did the trick and are easier to aim, much less need for crazy stab moves.
- Stabbing up close actually took a degree of effort or skill, now its just point and click.

[Akynos]

I agree that 1h is not the only broken stab.
2h has an insane reach and you can stab the enemy in the face even if he is 10cm away from you if you masturbate your mouse in the right way. Killed quite a few people on duel with that bullshitty technique.
However there are other ways to abuse it, ask guys like GTX or Atze. They stab 1m away from you then move the sword into your body. What would result in a ridiculous move IRL makes full damage in this game.
Even the animation is shitty - How can someone realistically stab someone without losing balance? Try making the exact same moves as the characters with a heavy metal bar ;  watch out for the fall. Yes, we do not balance based on realism, but 2h stab animation is a big 'fuck you' to physics altogether.
Note that the hitbox comments above apply for polearm as well - only I find the polearm animation correct.

In my opinion the only way to resolve this is to change the moment when the animation can deal damage. Use a new kind of formula which doesnt simply take into account velocity or whatever is actually used, but rather something that represents the actual force that can be applied to the hit. Perhaps even just make the very tip of the sword the hitbox when thrusting, combined with a formula that somehow states '' Force does maximum damage from a horizontal frontal movement - any variation in this angle before the hit will reduce damage dealt expodentially''

I'm sorry if I can't make my idea clear, but I'm simply showing a way that would kind of realistically represent an effective thrust whilst keeping it balanced with the other attack directions.

[Ronin]

I agree that 1h is not the only broken stab.
2h has an insane reach and you can stab the enemy in the face even if he is 10cm away from you if you masturbate your mouse in the right way. Killed quite a few people on duel with that bullshitty technique.
However there are other ways to abuse it, ask guys like GTX or Atze. They stab 1m away from you then move the sword into your body. What would result in a ridiculous move IRL makes full damage in this game.
Even the animation is shitty - How can someone realistically stab someone without losing balance? Try making the exact same moves as the characters with a heavy metal bar ;  watch out for the fall. Yes, we do not balance based on realism, but 2h stab animation is a big 'fuck you' to physics altogether.
Note that the hitbox comments above apply for polearm as well - only I find the polearm animation correct.

In my opinion the only way to resolve this is to change the moment when the animation can deal damage. Use a new kind of formula which doesnt simply take into account velocity or whatever is actually used, but rather something that represents the actual force that can be applied to the hit. Perhaps even just make the very tip of the sword the hitbox when thrusting, combined with a formula that somehow states '' Force does maximum damage from a horizontal frontal movement - any variation in this angle before the hit will reduce damage dealt expodentially''

I'm sorry if I can't make my idea clear, but I'm simply showing a way that would kind of realistically represent an effective thrust whilst keeping it balanced with the other attack directions.

Should be also valid for kicks too.

[Corsair831]

Maybe the difference in damage between 2h and pole/1h stabs has more to do with that the highest 2h stab damage is 26p and the highest 1h/pole stab damages are 31p/33p respectively? That is not a small difference.  Which is a problem because 1h should not do the same or even more damage than the other 2 classes, simply because 1h allows you to use a shield without penalties. Speed bonus and hold attacks are not used differently by these classes, at least not in any significant or constant way.
Multiple reasons for that:
- Every weapon could turn it's stabs at the speed of light, now it is just 1h that can do that.
- Regardless of the turnrate making it easier to use, the effective reach was still much shorter than it is now. You would still glance at the arse end of your animation, unlike now.
- People generally sucked at blocking and sideswings did the trick and are easier to aim, much less need for crazy stab moves.
- Stabbing up close actually took a degree of effort or skill, now its just point and click.

hardly without penalties, 1h shield means you need to use a small weapon, where movement is important, yet a decent shield weighs like 6.5+ kg, meaning you have to either play with crap movement or light armour, which is pretty ghey

[MURDERTRON]

hardly without penalties, 1h shield means you need to use a small weapon, where movement is important, yet a decent shield weighs like 6.5+ kg, meaning you have to either play with crap movement or light armour, which is pretty ghey

Light armor with a shield is the best way to go.  If You're a shielder who's eating a lot if hits, you're a bad shielder. In fact, a lot of shielders don't know what they're doing but they get lucky enough, enough times since they have a good shield, good armor and iron flesh, which allow them to make plenty of mistakes while still getting kills.

[Gurnisson]

Light armor with a shield is the best way to go.  If You're a shielder who's eating a lot if hits, you're a bad shielder. In fact, a lot of shielders don't know what they're doing but they get lucky enough, enough times since they have a good shield, good armor and iron flesh, which allow them to make plenty of mistakes while still getting kills.

In theory, yes, but with the amount of really bad teammates, you need more than rags to soak up the high amount of bad swings. I liked playing shielder with leather jerkin and leather gloves, but the amount of times a teammate would lob off almost all your hp and/or open you up to an enemy hit made it frustrating at times too. From Mail Shirt with Fur to Sarranid Guard Armour are good armours for shielders, in my opinion.

[Corsair831]

In theory, yes, but with the amount of really bad teammates, you need more than rags to soak up the high amount of bad swings. I liked playing shielder with leather jerkin and leather gloves, but the amount of times a teammate would lob off almost all your hp and/or open you up to an enemy hit made it frustrating at times too. From Mail Shirt with Fur to Sarranid Guard Armour are good armours for shielders, in my opinion.

yes i agree, i use extremely light armour just for lol's, but if i was to do a serious tryhard level 30 shielder build it would be 18/21 with something around the 8 armour weight

[Falka]

What I suggest is:
- Nerf 1h stab damage to balance it with other stabs.

It suggests that 1h stab dmg is higher than polearms stab. While 1h stab can deal ridiculous amount of dmg (unloomed scottish sword took from me around 50 hp with 1 hit and I had 68 body armor) awlpike hits evern harder. I remember that Heibai TKed me in 2 hits when I was wearing +3 churburg cuirass...

[Macropus]

It suggests that 1h stab dmg is higher than polearms stab. While 1h stab can deal ridiculous amount of dmg (unloomed scottish sword took from me around 50 hp with 1 hit and I had 68 body armor) awlpike hits evern harder. I remember that Heibai TKed me in 2 hits when I was wearing +3 churburg cuirass...

No, it's suggests that 1h stab is supposed to cause less damage than a polearm stab

[rustyspoon]

Maybe the difference in damage between 2h and pole/1h stabs has more to do with that the highest 2h stab damage is 26p and the highest 1h/pole stab damages are 31p/33p respectively? That is not a small difference.  Which is a problem because 1h should not do the same or even more damage than the other 2 classes, simply because 1h allows you to use a shield without penalties. Speed bonus and hold attacks are not used differently by these classes, at least not in any significant or constant way.

Just for shits and giggles:

Here are some comparisons between 1h and 2h swords that have both swings and thrusts. (I didn't compare polearms in this as most high-stab damage polearms are only 2-directional)

	2 handers	1 handers
Average Speed	94	99
Average Length	116	105
Average Thrust	23p	24p
Average Swing	39c	30c

On average 1-handers have 1 more point of thrust damage than 2-handers. To overcome this horrendous shortcoming, they compensate with their much higher swing damage on 3 of their attack directions, much longer length with only slightly slower swing speed.

Let's look at the top 3 thrusting swords of both 1h and 2h.

	German Greatsword	Great Sword	Danish Greatsword	Espada Eslavona	Scottish Sword	Side Sword
Speed	90	93	90	102	103	99
Length	123	120	124	90	80	95
Thrust	27	26	25	31	30	29
Swing	39	37	41	25	27	29

Going down the list, the 1-handers are WAY faster than the 2-handers. The difference between the fastest and slowest weapon is 13 points of speed.

The 2-handers are WAY longer than the 1-handers with a difference of 44 points between the longest and shortest.

The 1-handers have noticeably higher thrust damage with a difference of 6 points between the weakest and strongest.

The 2-handers have DRAMATICALLY higher swing damage with a difference of 16 points between the weakest and strongest.

I still don't see how 1-handers are as overpowered as everyone says they are. The 1-h thrust weapons that do a lot of damage have laughably low damage on 3 of their attacks (with a slight exception to the side sword), combined with dramatically lower length. They only thing they have going for them is their speed.

So again, (not surprisingly) the CRPG community is blowing things WAY out of proportion.

[Ronin]

It is not the balance issue that bothers some people. It is the unrealisticism.

[Corsair831]

It is the unrealisticism.
It is the unrealisticism.
It is the unrealisticism.
It is the unrealisticism.

[This_Isnt_Gomer]

1h Stabs are gay. You gotta swing before the 1h thinks about stabbing. Fighting 1h has forced me to predict the feature and now I can see the feature bright and clear. Nerf is near!

[Bjord]

It is not the balance issue that bothers some people. It is the unrealisticism.

Quite agreealistic.