1h blunt vs. 1h pierce

[Gurnisson]

This is not really a thread for discussing the knockdown feature in itself, it's more for discussing the balance between picks and maces, where knockdown indeed plays an important part. It just seems like people don't go into the 1h blunt vs. 1h pierce balance while talking about knockdown as a mechanic.

Put it this way, for the few hits you get by using the thin model of picks, you would probably get a lot more with the free knockdown hits and by kicking them up again for 1 or more free hits. Picks are just not worth it compared to maces. A buff to 1h picks or a nerf to 1h maces is needed to make it balanced. Also, for a mechanic that is supposed to have a maximum chance of like 30 %, I still find myself noticing the times it doesn't knockdown, not the times it does knockdown. It happens very often with the likes of Warhammer, Iberian Mace and Spathovaklion, at least.

[CrazyCracka420]

Didn't read anything except OP.

I think the picks give you more speed and sometimes (not usually though) a little more base damage than an equivalent blunt 1h.   I personally prefer the knock down ability of the blunt 1h's and will give up some speed for them.

[Falka]

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Considering just how good knockdown is, is it just me who find the stat difference on high tier picks and maces pretty unfair? While the visibility of the picks might make it easier to get a hit in, the stat boost they have because of the lack of knockdown is pretty much negligible compared to maces. I've been using 1h blunt weapons a lot lately and they knockdown very often, and it makes them a much better choice than the picks.

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Iberian Mace
weapon length: 71
weight: 2
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 97
weapon length: 71
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 28 blunt
slots: 1
Knockdown

Military Pick
weapon length: 70
weight: 2.2
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 70
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 29 pierce
slots: 1
Secondary Mode

For 500 gold more you get +1 damage (and pierce instead), + 1 speed, -1 length and lose knockdown. Hooray..

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Steel Pick
weapon length: 64
weight: 2.2
difficulty: 13
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 64
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 31 pierce
slots: 1
Secondary Mode

Warhammer
weapon length: 65
weight: 2.5
difficulty: 15
speed rating: 97
weapon length: 65
thrust damage: 18 pierce
swing damage: 31 blunt
slots: 1
Knockdown
Secondary Mode

For 1500 gold less you have the same swing damage (just pierce instead), no thrust, +1 speed, -1 length and no knockdown.


And since the best part of picks is the thin model that makes for nice wiggling held attacks, you can just use the spathovaklion to get the good part of both maces and picks, the spathovaklion having both knockdown and a thin model (and great stats to boot). Buff picks or nerf knockdown!

One more thing, against very heavy armors picks glance quite a lot with low PS, maces don't glance "at all". Picks are definitely underpowered in comaparison to maces/hammers.

[Osiris]

if memory serves me right (prolly doesnt) Ive been using the military hammer +3 in strat and had 31b but in secondary mode i think it also had 31p. so +0 would be 28blunt 28pierce 80 length 94 speed king of both worlds.


Picks are harder to block but when the blunt knockdown weapons do hit they hit just as hard and put you on your ass

[San]

There isn't any leeway for buffing the pick weapons since they already are very good with great speed and power. The speed increase is still somewhat reasonable over maces (spatho is an exception). I'd nerf knockdown first by adjusting weapon weights before I would buff picks.

[Penitent]

I've been using 1h weapons since I've starting playing this 2 years ago.  I don't think knockdown is that great.  I'll take the +damage, +speed, and low visibility of a pick any day.

[Pentecost]

There isn't any leeway for buffing the pick weapons since they already are very good with great speed and power. The speed increase is still somewhat reasonable over maces (spatho is an exception). I'd nerf knockdown first by adjusting weapon weights before I would buff picks.

I just want to point out that over the last half year, the Steel Pick has had its strength requirement increased by one, its swing speed lowered by one, and its damage reduced by one. Were these changes based on usage statistics or something else? Either way, while I don't think that these changes suddenly make it a worthless weapon, but I do think that there's now little reason to take it over a Warhammer or the other weapons that occupy a similar niche.

[Kafein]

Low visibility is a really huge advantage. For all the potential hits knockdown gives you, with a pick your last attack could have hit if the enemy didn't do the right block. It really depends on playstyles, whether you fight to kill your opponent as quickly as possible or to survive etc.

[San]

Yeah, but the pick had it coming. Glad I bailed out on that. The speed decrease was unnecessary, but the power decrease was.

[Gurnisson]

I think some of you underrates knockdown quite a bit. I've been using picks and maces lately and maces are just soooo much better. Especially the Military Pick is completely useless when compared to Iberian Mace and Spathovaklion.

[Phew]

Picks are very weak right now compared to the blunt 1h weapons and even the secondary modes of the Broad 1h Axe and Iron War Axe.

Considering their short reach, I don't know why the devs felt the need to nerf pick speed so much. Picks should be significantly faster than maces/hammers. Right now, the Spathovaklion is faster than the picks AND has knockdown, which is a totally ridiculous combination.

[San]

The knockdown is significant, but its trigger percentage isn't very high. I value the good damage against high armor a bit more, so I think 2-3 speed is a good tradeoff when both weapons deal good damage. I believe picks should be at least 99 speed. At 98 speed for instance, the military pick is comparable to the broad one handed battleaxe's secondary mode and the steel pick is worse than its blunt counterparts.

[Penitent]

To be honest I haven't tried some of the 1h weapons in a while.  I was just playing around with the steel pick and warhammer yesterday. 

I've changed my position somewhat and I think the Steel Pick could use 1 more point of speed.  I really didn't think it needed to be nerfed back when it had +1 damage and +1 speed to be honest...

[Phew]

To be honest I haven't tried some of the 1h weapons in a while.  I was just playing around with the steel pick and warhammer yesterday. 

I've changed my position somewhat and I think the Steel Pick could use 1 more point of speed.  I really didn't think it needed to be nerfed back when it had +1 damage and +1 speed to be honest...

64/65 cm reach without a thrust is really short. All of your attacks are within kick range, and these weapons do about the same damage as a Espada thrust (which has almost 3 times the reach!).  With all these limitations, I'm not sure why picks were nerfed in the first place.

Other than Aarkor, I can't even think of anyone on NA2 that even uses a steel pick anymore. And Aarkor has a +3 Spathovaklion than he for some reason always keeps sheathed.

[San]

The only heavy steel pick users I knew about were me and kinngrimm before it got nerfed. It's still good, but it's overshadowed now since the decreased speed makes them too comparable to hammers without knockdown. The pick used to be too good because the swords were too weak, but that situation has changed now.