Suggestions to re-balance throwing.

[Native_ATS]

chaz said they are working on them in throwing is dead post =]

[Cheap_Shot]

chaz said they are working on them in throwing is dead post =]

I read. The best rebalance I could suggest would be lower the wpf requirement, increase the powerthrow skill needed, boost the accuracy a touch, and making heirlooming increase stack size by 1. Reasonable and minor changes that would be more then enough. I hope these are the changes that will be made.

[Skeebie]

Please take another look at the throwers.  I'm still a fairly new player, but it's obvious that throwers are severely gimped.  As an archer, I am able to defend myself in melee combat, but throwers are stuck being just that- throwers, and for a very limited amount of time per game.  Even these 2 hander monsters running around are able to use a crossbow and get some ranged in.  This is not balanced.

[Vibe]

I read. The best rebalance I could suggest would be lower the wpf requirement, increase the powerthrow skill needed, boost the accuracy a touch, and making heirlooming increase stack size by 1. Reasonable and minor changes that would be more then enough. I hope these are the changes that will be made.

As much as I am against throwers in general, this sounds reasonable enough.

[Tydeus]

Throwing isn't "easy". The horrible accuracy and limited ammo mean every shot has to count. I would argue that being a pure thrower is the most difficult playstyle in the game.

Throwing before the recent changes, was definitely the easiest thing to do. Currently sure, I'll say it's much harder. As for the actual difficulty itself, in what sense? How long it would take a compltely new player to be able to hold a 1:1 ratio with pure throwing rather than a melee type? I'd argue it wouldn't take nearly as long as 2hand/Polearm would take.

You cant wear much armor at all, especially since the wpf requirement was increased, but you have to get in close to combat.

Athletics melee builds can't take much armor either, not to mention they don't just get close to combat, they have to be IN combat.

You cant take a backup weapon to defend yourself with unlike other ranged classes because of the slot increase.

Or you could take the hammer like every Longbow/Warbow/Heavy Xbow/Arbalest user. It's zero slots, throwers have no more right to complain here than any other ranged.

You now have to dedicate all your wpf to throwing so when you quickly run out, you cant just pick up a fallen weapon and defend yourself. You cant even put points into polearms and use the higher tier throwing weapons alternate melee mode effectively (if you could ever call any of those weapons effective at melee(no you couldn't)).

Surly you can remove 14 wpf and one PT from your build to get 100+ WPF in a melee type. I know several people who would hybrid with zero proficiency in melee, before the patch, and they did just fine in melee(including myself). Sure they couldn't exactly spam people to death, but you're fast enough to fight without a hindrance otherwise.

You don't like dieing when two throwing spears hit you? Well I don't like being destroyed in two hits by a bec or a two hander, half a min into the game, when my throwing weapons have already run out and I'm unarmed and can't do anything. You could still be alive by paying attention. What am I supposed to do?

If you're running out of ammunition 30 seconds into the round and don't have a melee weapon, you're either terrible because you whiffed 28+ throwing weapons, or you were dumb enough not to take the hammer, a zero slot item. Still be alive by paying attention? The exactly does that mean? Are you suggesting "paying attention" is all that is required to avoid a throwing weapon?

Maybe I should clarify again: Yes I think throwing is currently underpowered, I just want to make sure it isn't put into the place it was before the patch.

[Native_ATS]

ummm no, most of that is iffy, you cant take a hammer or long dagger... u dont have the space for it, sure its 0 slots but you use all your slots for ur 2 lances, or 2 stacks of javs....
go all wpf in throw? thats dumb, you can do that with bow np because you have like 40 arrows min, 60 arrows for lighter bows... when you throw you get 6 jav? 2 lances... 4 axes.... thats fail
you do run out of ammo super faste cuz unlike arrows and xbolts you cant pick up your missed weapons unless you have high ass wpf... which is  noting going to happen since u need high pt to do avg damg,
at 9pt it took me 3 jarids to kill a man.... if i get 7pt to get enough wpf then i bet it will take me 5-6.... thats still fail
throwing isnt all bad but it isnt good, or even ok, its pretty crappy
throwing 28 darts or daggers is lame.... who stacks up pt and all that jazz to throw wardarts... why are war darts better then lances or jarids

[Tydeus]

ummm no, most of that is iffy, you cant take a hammer or long dagger... u dont have the space for it, sure its 0 slots but you use all your slots for ur 2 lances, or 2 stacks of javs....

Point taken, but this ONLY stands for dedicated heavy throwrs

go all wpf in throw? thats dumb, you can do that with bow np because you have like 40 arrows min, 60 arrows for lighter bows... when you throw you get 6 jav? 2 lances... 4 axes.... thats fail

Cheap Shot was saying you HAVE to spend all your wpf in throwing, I gave two reasons why choosing to do so or to split your wpf, would both work.

you do run out of ammo super faste cuz unlike arrows and xbolts you cant pick up your missed weapons unless you have high ass wpf... which is  noting going to happen since u need high pt to do avg damg,
at 9pt it took me 3 jarids to kill a man.... if i get 7pt to get enough wpf then i bet it will take me 5-6.... thats still fail
throwing isnt all bad but it isnt good, or even ok, its pretty crappy

2 PT wouldn't force you to hit twice as many times, that's a statement that completely ignores game mechanics. 3 jarids compared to 5 or 6? 6 would mean a TWO PT REDUCTION caused your damage to be cut completely in half. Sounds like you're asking for the WPF restriction to be completely removed what many people think that's the best and most creative change to throwing that they did.

since you added this late:

throwing 28 darts or daggers is lame.... who stacks up pt and all that jazz to throw wardarts... why are war darts better then lances or jarids

Better in which sense? They're definitely more accurate. Depending on damage and accuracy, consistently more hits could mean higher average damage. But that doesn't mean they're better.

[Native_ATS]

i like to share wpf with pol-arm and throwing, i tend to do 100throw, 90 pol-arm
i do think the only good throwing weapon left is master work wardarts, 28 or 30p.... you get 28 of them, they dont suck ass when you throw them
i swear it takes me like 3 jarids to kill most people, i worry at 7pt it would take 4-5, i know wpf dosnt add much to any damg,  but its need if you want to pick up ur missed shots.
i think throwing is great in small pt, to help hybrid builds, i think throwing is best at 4pt, with darts and 2 hander, other then that a pure thrower is a thing of the past D:
(i write late cuz am random... and cant spell lol)
ps: am fine with some of the things they did... i like that you need wpf, i like that u have a tad less ammo... i was hopeing it wouldnt go form 12 lances to 2... i was hoping for 4... but with all the combos of nerffs throwing just got killed
i say keep wpf reg, but dont nerff stacks so much... or dagm -.- if anything higher damg... you need it since you cant get as high pt if u want to pick  up you missed shot or wear ok gear... or even aim better lol

[Cheap_Shot]

I see you all talking about war darts. You may not have caught it, but wardarts were restricted to 4 per stack in the very latest patch. Even ROCKS were reduced. ROCKS.

Throwing before the recent changes, was definitely the easiest thing to do. Currently sure, I'll say it's much harder. As for the actual difficulty itself, in what sense? How long it would take a compltely new player to be able to hold a 1:1 ratio with pure throwing rather than a melee type? I'd argue it wouldn't take nearly as long as 2hand/Polearm would take.

No, as in the current combination of all the risks and downsides to being a thrower makes it a super difficult playstyle. It is easily the most difficult of the ranged playstyles at any rate, and the risk vs reward is no longer balanced. I retired recently to try and repair my build. Holding a 1:1 KD ratio as a dedicated thrower is much more difficult then 2hand/Polearm, you don't become effective until late 20's, and I have been throwing for a long time and am a very skilled thrower.

Athletics melee builds can't take much armor either, not to mention they don't just get close to combat, they have to be IN combat.

The two builds aren't comparable. Agility has speed to make up for less armor. Throwers have no speed to speak of, and is one of the slowest builds.

Or you could take the hammer like every Longbow/Warbow/Heavy Xbow/Arbalest user. It's zero slots, throwers have no more right to complain here than any other ranged.

Doesn't change the fact that the super high wpf need for throwing means you will be even more useless with that crappy hammer.

Surly you can remove 14 wpf and one PT from your build to get 100+ WPF in a melee type. I know several people who would hybrid with zero proficiency in melee, before the patch, and they did just fine in melee(including myself). Sure they couldn't exactly spam people to death, but you're fast enough to fight without a hindrance otherwise.

So you mean "surely you can just stop being a pure thrower and be a hybrid?" No. I don't want to be a hybrid. Throwing is what I enjoy, and what I'm debating is the unreasonable nerfs that have removed a fun and perfectly legit playstyle from the game. There are plenty of other "pure" builds which are able to make use of 10 points in a skill without being useless. My preferred build has been removed from the game for no real reason. If I wanted to play a hybrid character I would roll one up and wouldn't be here.

If you're running out of ammunition 30 seconds into the round and don't have a melee weapon, you're either terrible because you whiffed 28+ throwing weapons, or you were dumb enough not to take the hammer, a zero slot item. Still be alive by paying attention? The exactly does that mean? Are you suggesting "paying attention" is all that is required to avoid a throwing weapon?

28+ throwing weapons? What are you talking about? Not even throwing knives give you 28+ throwing weapons anymore. Jarids give you 1.5 throwing weapons per slot. Axes give you 1. Spears give you 2. The deadliest weapon gives you half a shot per slot. A good shield soaks those right up literally without flinching. You easily run out of these weapons, and since the accuracy is so poor, it is almost like gambling trying to hit someone who is aware of you. Yes, "paying attention" and moving around is pretty much all you need currently. If you die while paying attention, it's because the thrower is a very skilled player and the throwing weapon luckily found its target inside the giant aiming reticule.

To clarify, since you are fighting pretty hard and may not know what it is you're fighting against, I am talking about a dedicated thrower build because that is what I like to play and my ability to play one has been removed. Remove the severe wpf requirement, but increase the needed powerthrow for high tier, or all throwing weapons, improve accuracy and make heir looming increase stack size by one. This is very fair in my mind and would balance it so pure throwers would be possible once more, without turning the game into a giant chuck-a-thon again. It seems balanced, and it's really not much to ask so that a lot of players can enjoy playing the game again.

[Native_ATS]

OMG WTF THEY NERFFED THROWING EVEN MORE! 4 WARDARTS PER STACK? OMG THERE IS NOTHING GOOD OR OK ABOUT THROWING!

[Cheap_Shot]

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One I did before all the nerfs. Might as well share it.

[Native_ATS]

ugh.... there is no faith....who is nerffing throwing?
who? or what monster is doing this.... who was like you know what 7wardarts is op..... lets nerff the fuck out of throwing more.... who cares about throwing it use to be ok, it killed people lets make sure throwing is useless form this point on.... i mean i dont throw so who cares... frist lets take down the might lance... yet it is the most str reg weapon in the game down form 65p to 56p.... wait we can do better lets nerff all throwing damg.... wait we can do more... let take away how many you get in a stack.... wait  let do more.. let make it so u cant have more then 2 lances... ya form 12 lances to 2.... that seems fair.... ooo lets make it that you cant pick up your missed shots if you dont have enough wpf... no even better lets make it 14 wpf xpt... that way no one can make a real thrower anymore...so even if you get 9pt it will take all 3 jarids to kill a man... ya that is fair, not like they will get that kill if they miss... not like they will get a kill with lances since it takes 4-5 lances to brake a sheild/or 4-5 axes  but since they got only 2 they will suck...btw let me buff my xbow... seems fair.... i'll nerff ponys too... ya i hate ponys and throwers.... i want to just pew pew with my xbow... ya 100p for free... i wont even put wpf... not like i need it... ya 2 hander and xbow ftw....
this is how it all went down in my head 
(to be fair alot of people think the +hp and ap is a buff for cav)

[Lorenzo_of_Iberia]

This is ridiculous...

1. Throwing was only whined about by people who didnt use a shield... They only  need to take a cheap board shield to absorb 3 javs or so.
2. Throwing was never accurate if you wanted some melee or riding skill (such as myself being an ex- jav cav)
3. At PT5 wpf 140 i still was doing less damage to a horse with BALANCED javelins than my Horse Archer friend with a unheirloomed strongbow at 5 PD 130 wpf and khergit arrows was doing to the same horse if i rode. While the bow had plenty of arrows and more range.
4. Javs now take 2 slots meaning i can take 3 javelins and a war spear thats not even enough to kill a player in high end medium armour

Why did my unique build that was my build get nerfed so hard? If i now become a lancer then all the plate armoured guys will complain about me being a lancer. If i become a HA people will whine about me being so annoying. As I said this is ridiculous...

[Tydeus]

OMG WTF THEY NERFFED THROWING EVEN MORE! 4 WARDARTS PER STACK? OMG THERE IS NOTHING GOOD OR OK ABOUT THROWING!

I'm with him on this. I remember checking the ammunition and slot usage of all the throwing weapons directly after the .223 patch. I guess the website wasn't updated for me to see it's only 4 darts per stack now.

To clarify, since you are fighting pretty hard and may not know what it is you're fighting against, I am talking about a dedicated thrower build because that is what I like to play and my ability to play one has been removed. Remove the severe wpf requirement, but increase the needed powerthrow for high tier, or all throwing weapons, improve accuracy and make heir looming increase stack size by one. This is very fair in my mind and would balance it so pure throwers would be possible once more, without turning the game into a giant chuck-a-thon again. It seems balanced, and it's really not much to ask so that a lot of players can enjoy playing the game again.

You seem to have overlooked a few things, specifically when you stated you wanted wpf because you like to hybrid with poles and that now you HAVE to spend it all in throwing, but you don't. That's not exactly talking about dedicated throwers, now is it?

It seems your biggest complaint is the wpf system which helps to cap how much damage a thrower can do. Increasing PT requirement does nothing to balance high tier throwing, all it does is separates hybrid throwers from high tier throwers, something accomplished already by the WPF system (which also does more to balance throwing). Throwing is already quite accurate, enough to where a low athletics build is going to get pelted with throwing, especially if the thrower is being smart and not prancing around like a jackass. With 4PT and 70 effective wpf I was able to go toe to toe against an archer at mid range with war darts or Javs. I did this several times, even against native. I had pretty damn good accuracy, enough so that it made me want to make a thread about throwing being too accurate(what's the point of an archer shooting at mid range if a thrower can do the same with the same accuracy). That being said, I did NOT test 5/6 PT weapons as I didn't meet the requirement for such, so I have no first hand experience with the accuracy of those.

[Cheap_Shot]

It seems your biggest complaint is the damage throwers do, which is already balanced out by having far far less ammunition then the other ranged types. The damage nerf to them just made them useless since it takes entire stacks to kill a single medium armored person now, and that's if you're skilled enough to hit them. I wanted wpf because the current requirement is too high. It doesn't do any "clever balancing" it only makes it too expensive to even consider. Let me give you an example of why this is by explaining the pure thrower playstyle.

A thrower would start the round with all slots filled with throwing weapons. This is because, well, it's the only way to keep throwing since you can't scavenge from bodies or shields, and people rarely are throwing the higher tier weapons at all. You use these to de-horse cav and horse archers so infantry can rush in, and you chuck the rest at people who aren't paying attention as well as two handers in plate so when he cleaves you in half with one or two hits, your teammates have a chance. A good thrower doesn't even look at shields. A shield user will destroy a thrower any day without fail. I have only won against a good shield user a hand full of times and it required them to either be not looking my way, or for my to exert a lot of skill and timing. You will be out of throwing weapons at this point because you only have like 8. If you are good you will have killed two or three people. If you are just ok, you will have killed a horse and some lightly armored dude. You are now unarmed and running for your life. Before, you could pick up a 2 hander and defend yourself for the rest of the turn. With a few points there you had plenty of selection, making you not worthless for the rest of the match. You might even get a kill, again if you are skilled enough at manual blocking. Without the skill in a secondary weapon, you have a hard cap on the number of people you can kill by dedicated throwing no matter how good you are. You are stuck running away because you can't pick anything up. You are swinging your fists at plate armor spammers while people accuse you of leaching without a weapon and call for your banning. That doesn't seem right since all other ranged have enough room for a backup weapon, and enough versatility that they can put points into that weapon. Crossbow for example takes pretty much no wpf to be decent at it, but a good crossbow currently does the same or more damage then a throwing weapon and has quite a lot more shots + takes up less room.
 
This is not "clever balancing". It doesn't make any sense compared to other builds.

Also are you kidding me? Throwing weapons accurate? Too accurate? What are you on? You have to be trolling because you have no clue what you're talking about. I've tried crossbow and archer before I went pure thrower. Throwing is as accurate as Fox News. It's starting to seem like you're saying whatever you feel like to counter my arguments for the sake of arguing. You are a highly skilled player and have killed me way more then I have ever killed you. Can't you just let me play the way I like playing without trying to ruin it for no reason other then to argue? Your information is not up to date and your experience in throwing is not enough to know what you're talking about.