Suggestions to re-balance throwing.

[Elmetiacos]

Well, this has to be some sort of record - everyone but one poster on the thread agrees that throwing has been nerfed too much. I never really understood why people whined about throwing so much; it was all over after a few seconds. The game breaker for me was all those "...and I'll have a crossbow too" hybrids turning a lot of maps into a game more like Call Of Duty than M&B, which seems to be fixed now. Maybe the devs thought they could pre-empt all the crossbow hybrids turning into throwing hybrids with the changes?

[22nd_King_Plazek]

More ammo!

3 javs = 1 slot = fair
3 javs = 2 slot = bullshit

[Tydeus]

There's a lot of misunderstanding going on here, especially if you think I'm trolling you or have it out for throwers. I agree completely that throwing is NOW, in all aspects, underpowered and I’ve been agreeing that high tier throwing is underpowered since my first post. I’m simply trying to ensure that it doesn’t go back to how it was.

I’ve never thought you should balance throwing damage by ammunition; it should be balanced for when you actually land a hit. No one benefits from throwing being so inaccurate that it’s completely random. That only frustrates throwers and pisses people off that get hit, thinking that it’s skill-less and random.

Also, it looks like your facts are wrong as well. If you only have 100 effective wpf, even if you have 9 PT, you’re only using 7 PT, as 14*7 = 98 wpf. If you have less than 84, you can’t pick up a PT6 weapon on the field because your effective PT is below 6. So all you need, with the current system (I hear from irc that the wpf per PT will be lowered a bit), is 84 effective PT and you can pick up all the throwing weapons you want. 30 weight seems pretty reasonable for a thrower, so 84+ 30, 114 doesn’t seem that unreasonable, especially when you can hit 116 with zero weapon master. Of course, whether or not 6 PT is enough is a different story, I’m sure for a “dedicated thrower” they’d want much more than that. 9 PT with 14 wpf requirement per PT is impossible with this system. I’ll yield that 14 is too high but that doesn’t mean I think the system should be removed. Any more than 10 PT should be useless, the same way more than 10 PS or PD should be useless. This is why I like the wpf system. It makes going over 10 PT extremely difficult.

As for your statement on the current life of a dedicated thrower, I agree completely with how you said it would go. That's what I was assuming would be the case. But things change when you bring even one throwing weapon that is 2 slots, you now have enough room for the hammer. It seems your statement no longer makes as much sense if throwing ammunition were changed making middle/high tier throwing weapons viable again. This is precisely why I’m arguing, so this doesn’t get overlooked because the only people posting on this subject are saying “buff buff buff” with no one giving any unbiased opinions (at least biased in favor of the opposition). It’s called representing what would be the unrepresented. Democracy if you will.

Tldr; read the whole fucking thing this time before you assholes assume I think throwing is balanced.

[Baggy]

Great comic.

The sad thing about all the "balancing" that goes into cRPG is that it never balances the game. 2H/polearm tincans builds always top the Kill board partly because they are the only build that has never been nerfed.
Or am I wrong on this?
I can't think of one cRPG update that has only affected these builds.

2 hand got nerfed hard in the patches lately.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

Not compared to throwing.

I am a 2h/thrower/cav. Have always been. Now I pretty much don't throw and trying to play throwing on horse is pointless. I am just an underpowered two hander with 3 power throw, 3 horse archery and 90WPF in throwing going to waste because I can only afford to carry three javelins.

[Cheap_Shot]

There's a lot of misunderstanding going on here, especially if you think I'm trolling you or have it out for throwers. I agree completely that throwing is NOW, in all aspects, underpowered and I’ve been agreeing that high tier throwing is underpowered since my first post. I’m simply trying to ensure that it doesn’t go back to how it was.

I’ve never thought you should balance throwing damage by ammunition; it should be balanced for when you actually land a hit. No one benefits from throwing being so inaccurate that it’s completely random. That only frustrates throwers and pisses people off that get hit, thinking that it’s skill-less and random.

Also, it looks like your facts are wrong as well. If you only have 100 effective wpf, even if you have 9 PT, you’re only using 7 PT, as 14*7 = 98 wpf. If you have less than 84, you can’t pick up a PT6 weapon on the field because your effective PT is below 6. So all you need, with the current system (I hear from irc that the wpf per PT will be lowered a bit), is 84 effective PT and you can pick up all the throwing weapons you want. 30 weight seems pretty reasonable for a thrower, so 84+ 30, 114 doesn’t seem that unreasonable, especially when you can hit 116 with zero weapon master. Of course, whether or not 6 PT is enough is a different story, I’m sure for a “dedicated thrower” they’d want much more than that. 9 PT with 14 wpf requirement per PT is impossible with this system. I’ll yield that 14 is too high but that doesn’t mean I think the system should be removed. Any more than 10 PT should be useless, the same way more than 10 PS or PD should be useless. This is why I like the wpf system. It makes going over 10 PT extremely difficult.

As for your statement on the current life of a dedicated thrower, I agree completely with how you said it would go. That's what I was assuming would be the case. But things change when you bring even one throwing weapon that is 2 slots, you now have enough room for the hammer. It seems your statement no longer makes as much sense if throwing ammunition were changed making middle/high tier throwing weapons viable again. This is precisely why I’m arguing, so this doesn’t get overlooked because the only people posting on this subject are saying “buff buff buff” with no one giving any unbiased opinions (at least biased in favor of the opposition). It’s called representing what would be the unrepresented. Democracy if you will.

Tldr; read the whole fucking thing this time before you assholes assume I think throwing is balanced.

I did read the whole thing. I appreciate your clarifications, but your tone and manner gave the very opposite impression, to the point were that is hard to believe. I will give you the benefit of the doubt in the interests of having a civil and productive discussion about it however. I'm not sure why you're saying that my facts are wrong? I am well aware that 100 wpf isn't enough to make use of anything beyond powerthrow 7 (less if you want to wear anything but peasant armor) and have not said anything to the contrary. It is part of my argument that the wpf hike was too severe. I believe that making the required powerthrow higher and reducing the wpf needed back down is a better way to keep throwing from becoming a cheap and overdone hybrid. Much better then punishing anyone wanting to get the most out of throwing by making a dedicated build. I have a bias yes, but I am not one of those shouting "buff buff buff!" with no care for how it effects the games balance. I have been calmly saying "be careful, just rebalance" and have put a lot of care and thought into my suggestions. One of those suggestions is even a nerf. I think I speak for all the (smart) throwers when I say no one want's throwing to become considered OP again. No class has been hit harder then we just were, especially complete build breaking changes all at once.

[San]

I wanted to create a dedicated thrower for a twist when playing the game, but it made my life as a peasant horrible, especially since I wasn't used to Crpg at that time.

As a thrower hybrid, I merely wish for the weapons to become an aid in mid-length combat, by either aiding my approach, or hindering others' retreats. And like other weapons, each kind having their own specialty.

[Thomek]

The dilemma for the devs as far as I can imagine is the following:

How can you make the Pure Thrower as a class viable, without making Secondary Throwers too powerful as well?

Also throwing imo suffers from poor internal balance/imagination/uniqueness of weapons.. They should perhaps have more extreme differences in projectile speed and accuracy etc..

On problem we had was shielders that had 8-12 heavy axes, devastating in close range against their main enemy 2h/polearms/Cav.. This was OP. Some pure throwers were also ridiculous since PT also adds accuracy (and projectile speed??) to projectiles requiring lower PT.

Throwing needed a nerf, bluntly put. But I like the "Pure Thrower" idea even though YOU as a class just took a weapon meant for backup and made it into a whole playstyle..

So I would love to see it become viable again, without everyone and his dog picking it up without serious investment of wpf.

I'd say keep the 2 slots to make hybrids harder, but increase stack size so a pure thrower can have a moderate amount of power.

[Cheap_Shot]

Yeah, the true problem was and always has been hybrids. It's one thing to be able to pick up a weapon and defend yourself with it, but an entirely other thing to be able to hide behind a top tier shield and huck axes all day. That's why I think increasing the slot need for the better weapons was a good idea, and I think increasing the powerthrow requirement to use them would work well too. There isn't a whole lot that can be done besides making it unappealing for hybrids, but the problem is, hiking the wpf need as high as it is not only made hybrids impossible, it made pure throwing complete garbage too. That wasn't the way to go.

[kongxinga]

Just posting to say I loved the the summary of the 2 hander/polearm munchkin in plate with crossbow,  especially the lol learn to block at the end. This is especially ironic since a lot rely on glances to save them when their blocks are incorrect. Very nice comic and avatar too.

I see a lot of people have stopped playing throwers and gone off to the next best thing, which will inevitably receive some big nerf. Unless the next best thing happens to be 2 handers or polearm, in which those are safe, old quirk of the mod. Slots hit other classes more than it did 2 hand or dueling polearms, since duelers often carried only 1 weapon to maximize footwork speed.

This is what I think happened to throwers. At first it was just a few people throwing, then throwing got an indirect buff as archery was nerfed, and the munchkins all arrived. This influx of munchkin throwers caused people to whine about throwing, resulting in a nerf, which I don't find very warranted. The ones who get hit are those who want to play as thrower, regardless of the efficiency since they are the only one staying around.

Oh can we clarify the word nerf? Fixing a unwarranted buff is not a nerf, it should be called a fix. So no more lol stab, but hello spin thrust. Does this make 2 hands, duelarms any worse than how they were in native, whether in absolute terms or relative? No.  2 hands are much stronger, whether it is a combination of horrible claustrophobic maps, exotic and buffed weapons, ineffectual cavalry, slower archery, and yes, impossible throwing. If you acted like a 2 hander duelist  from crpg in native, cav, archery and a myraid of things will have you for breakfast. Remember the no 1 cause of death in native is not missing a block or misreading a feint, it is being overwhelmed. Hard to be overwhelmed here when you have inexpensive armour that turn missed blocks into glances instead of deadly hits, crampy cluttered maps preventing flanking, and fewer projectiles. Thus you can roof camp or hide somewhere, duel the enemy 1 by 1 and feel like a stud with yor dueling skills. Thus 2 hands have not been nerfed.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

The dilemma for the devs as far as I can imagine is the following:

How can you make the Pure Thrower as a class viable, without making Secondary Throwers too powerful as well?

Also throwing imo suffers from poor internal balance/imagination/uniqueness of weapons.. They should perhaps have more extreme differences in projectile speed and accuracy etc..

On problem we had was shielders that had 8-12 heavy axes, devastating in close range against their main enemy 2h/polearms/Cav.. This was OP. Some pure throwers were also ridiculous since PT also adds accuracy (and projectile speed??) to projectiles requiring lower PT.

Throwing needed a nerf, bluntly put. But I like the "Pure Thrower" idea even though YOU as a class just took a weapon meant for backup and made it into a whole playstyle..

So I would love to see it become viable again, without everyone and his dog picking it up without serious investment of wpf.

I'd say keep the 2 slots to make hybrids harder, but increase stack size so a pure thrower can have a moderate amount of power.

Except last patch that "problem" was not a problem. Axes were 2 slots for 2 and as a result they sucked. A shielder could take a light shield 2 axes and a sidearm or a heavy shield and two axes. That is anything but overpowered.

Now you can take up to 4 with those two set ups. As they are 2 axes for 1 slot. This I feel is OK as they are a decently powerful weapon.
However they swapped position with the javelins which now take two slots for three javelins. Now javelins suck, hard.

Last patch I reckon all the throwing weapons were pretty balanced apart from axes which were fail. But then they swapped the axe and javelins positions, instead of just giving a small bonus to throwing axes.

[EponiCo]

I agree with this. Just leveling a thrower char with axes, I think they are ok. Javelins seem not very great but maybe it's just my timing, I think they could get a buff.
Throwing lances ... well, I threw the only lance I have into someones chest, regular mail (45 body armor or so with gloves), he survived ... 1 ammo weapon seems bloody useless tbh when you need more than 1 shot to kill. I say make it 2 lances for 3 slots, so he can carry a shield or sword. Otherwise I really like the changes.

edit: There's this other thing, when you pick up anything, even if you have already wasted enough ammo to have the free slots, it often makes your remaining ammo vanish

[Cheap_Shot]

Yeah, I offhand mentioned that bug in my summary but It really needs more attention then that.

There is a bug that removes a lot of a throwers ammunition when picking up a weapon. It doesn't even fall onto the ground for you to pick back up, it just vanishes. This even happens if you should have enough slot space for both the remaining throwing weapons and the picked up weapon. For example, this happens most to me when I have one stack of throwing weapons left (half I started with) so about 4 spears. When I pick up a two slot item from the ground, 3 of the 4 spears will vanish leaving me with 1 for no apparent reason. This bug has basically ended rounds for me.

On another note, I thought of a way to prevent OP shield/thrower hybrids. Just have accuracy severely reduced while a shield is out. I think this would make a lot of sense, since holding a heavy shield would arguably effect your balance and free movement, making your throws less accurate.

[Cheap_Shot]

Above all else, please, please just reduce the wpf need just a little bit. Doesn't have to be a lot, its just way too high right now. Through every crippling nerf I have continued to be a thrower. It was the only thing that made me stop and say "well fuck this I can't play anymore." Not being able to pick up a weapon to defend yourself with? Getting an annoying red error message all the time saying your wpf is too low, until you retire and build back up out of frustration, then continue to get it every time you try to put on anything but peasant clothes.... That was what killed it for me.

[AlbaTiger]

Cheap_Shot you are my hero...is there a limit to awesome points I can give?

I've spent days trying to think how to word a proper post on throwing that wouldn't get laughed off as "whining" and you've done it far better than I ever could both in words and pictures.

On another note, I thought of a way to prevent OP shield/thrower hybrids. Just have accuracy severely reduced while a shield is out. I think this would make a lot of sense, since holding a heavy shield would arguably effect your balance and free movement, making your throws less accurate.

Heck if need be just go the full way and flat out not allow throwing while the shield is out, better that than the utter annihilation of the class.

Not to mention that even King Leonidas himself had to put his shield down because it was heavy and threw him off balance and his target was far away.