Universe Expanding

[Leshma]

Can't remember where I've read it, but they mentioned 99 USD SteamMachines that will be used for streaming, 299 USD SteamMachines which should be the sweet spot and more expensive SteamMachines where price doesn't matter that much, focus will be on performance.

299 USD SteamMachines should be able to play most Steam games like they are meant to be played. I expect 720p 60fps for certain games and 1080 30/60fps for most games just like PS4.

[Butan]

Maybe Steam will do like Microsoft with the Xbox at its beginning, and accept deficit to install themselves in the console market.

Not sure if Steam has the same capacity to subsidize as Microsoft even though they are the n°1 in virtual video games store.

[Casimir]

In september 2012 Valves equity was estimated at $2.5 billion, who knows where that could be now. Without a doubt they have the capital to sell a machine at a loss if it means breaking into the largest games market (the console platform).

[Leshma]

They won't sell SteamMachines themselves. It's the same model like Android, they provide software and support while OEMs provide hardware. Valve will work with their partners on optimization of upcoming games (by using stripped down OpenGL API or proprietary solutions which will maintains AMD and nVidia). It's possible to sell PC capable running next gen console games for 300 USD, but with low margins. But I believe initial price for mid tier SteamMachines will be higher, around 500 USD.

Good thing about this concept is that it has all advantages consoles have over PC, but none of the downsides. SteamMachines will be upgradeable, you'll be able to buy a new model with faster hardware every couple of years (or even every year). It will be mod friendly because Steam Workshop is essential part of SteamOS. We'll be able to play older games on it (backwards compatibility). And the best of it, developers will know the size of market and every hardware combination gamers use to play games. That's the biggest problem with PC market, it's huge but no one knows its boundaries and there's a ton of different hardware combinations devs must take into account. SteamMachines and SteamOS will fix that issue.

[Rumblood]

Yes, they will definitely sell 1000+€ hardware for 500€.

No, it's called fantasy. The configuration you mention can be sold for ~$500 because that's what it's worth.

Make up your mind. Either they will have steam boxes priced in the console range or they won't. As for the more expensive models being fantasy for cheaper than you can buy the parts on the street yourself? Study up on business models. Selling consoles for less than they cost to manufacture has been standard operating procedure for the console market for decades. Again, look up subsidizing and economy of scale.

http://www.geek.com/games/sony-will-sell-every-ps4-at-a-loss-but-easily-recoup-it-in-games-ps-plus-sales-1571335/

[cmp]

You misunderstood the first post. We were talking about the high end boxes being available at console price (hence Kafein's post about "mayhem in the streets").
Also, being available for cheaper than you can buy the parts for is possible, being $600 cheaper is pure fantasy.

[Leshma]

If this thing takes off, I think that hardware manufacturers will have to settle for lower prices. They are many reasons why I think like that. First of all, Valve could create bigger market for PC gaming. Currently it's 50 million for Steam and few millions for other digital distribution systems (maybe Origin has more because of Battlefield popularity). Consoles at the moment are sitting at 150 million for current gen big boys, X360 and PS3 and more than 100 million for Wii. That's 250 million players but it's most likely a lot less because many people own and play on more than one console. On top of that, there's China which recently lifted embargo on game consoles. Chinese players were able to buy them in stores but console commercials were forbidden. That's a HUGE emerging market for all players in gaming business.

Gaming is growing and Valve wants to be the leader. That's the main reason why they are doing all of this. I'm just thankful that they are taking right approach to console gaming with SteamOS and Steam Machines. It's open, upgradeable and will create new ecosystem where seasoned game developers will work alongside modders, who will be able to sell their creations without legal issues (because Valve will organize the whole thing for them and take the their cut for it). That's not something some people like because it will mean that mods won't be free like they used to be in most cases but it is much better for gaming community as a whole than what Sony, Microsoft and especially asshole companies like EA are trying to achieve.

For example, EA is allowing mods in Sim City but with so many restrictions it's not even worth to mod that game at all. On the other hand, Star Citizen is a game where RSI is selling ships for big money but there is already handful of mods created by community members which will be free at first and those mods are at the same level as those expensive ships RSI is selling. That's the power of modding and the very definition of PC gaming.

[Rumblood]

You misunderstood the first post. We were talking about the high end boxes being available at console price (hence Kafein's post about "mayhem in the streets").
Also, being available for cheaper than you can buy the parts for is possible, being $600 cheaper is pure fantasy.

I get what youre saying, people always look at the big number first and ignore the range, but looks at the specs. Even the low end GTX 660 is going to be 10-15% faster than the stock PS4 GPU and can be upgraded, but it doesn't end there. They could easily put in the GTX 760 for the same price for a 30-40% boost in graphics processing and we haven't even left the $500 dollar range yet. 16GB RAM is double the 8GB available in the PS4. The i3 processor is about 15% faster than the AMD processor in the PS4 and that is the i3 2100, the low end of the i3.

So right out of the gate, the very low end Steambox, which you agree can easily get below the $500 mark and without subsidizing, is going to beat the PS4 by 10-15% in performance. A small amount of subsidizing, say the same amount Sony is going to subsidize their machine, and you get specs where you can expect to see a 30-40% boost in performance over the PS4, which is not insignificant and you are still at the console price range. Sure, you won't be getting a Titan in your Steambox for that price, but for a very similar price, you will be able to get far superior specifications in your rig.

[cmp]

but for a very similar price, you will be able to get far superior specifications in your rig.

Yes, but that's not surprising or even new; PC users have had superior hardware than consoles for the same price for many years.
I don't get why the big fuss over this thing. It doesn't have the main advantage of consoles (knowing that everything works out of the box because there's just 1 hardware spec) and it has no advantages over a PC. So, why?

[Rumblood]

Yes, but that's not surprising or even new; PC users have had superior hardware than consoles for the same price for many years.
I don't get why the big fuss over this thing. It doesn't have the main advantage of consoles (knowing that everything works out of the box because there's just 1 hardware spec) and it has no advantages over a PC. So, why?

Maybe not just 1, but 3^4 is ALOT better than the ~10^1000. Also, a keyboard/mouse just isn't couch friendly, at all. Not to mention, have you seen what Microsoft has been doing with their OS? I personally spend a lot of money on my PC, but primarily for gaming. I could get by with far less for other things I do on it. If I can get a similar gaming experience for less and with more reliable software due to the limited specs (I just need the best, upgradeable, not the option to buy every single item out there) that works 90% as well as a mouse/keyboard without the mouse/keyboard bulk and table/desk requirement, that lets me use my 70 inch TV from my couch instead of the 27 inch monitor I use at my desk, then I'll be making the switch from PC gaming to Steambox console. Now if only they add decent voice-to-text, it will be gold. I still prefer to read chat than listen to R4geN3rd1337.

[cmp]

I'm not sure I follow. Does Steambox offer a replacement to mouse+keyboard that doesn't work on a regular PC? Is it not possible to connect a regular PC to a television?
What is the difference between a Steambox and a HTPC with the same hardware in it?

[Dach]

That new controller do look interesting, would like to test it myself.

Since I'm already a PC couch gamer I like where this is heading. 

Wireless keyboard+mice already work nice on a couch. The biggest problem I have with couch gaming right now are games that aren't made for sitting 10" feet away from the screen.

I'm playing a lot of EVE Online, there is so much small character to read in that game, it's sometime really annoying. They do have a UI scaling option but it's not enough. 

[Rumblood]

I'm not sure I follow. Does Steambox offer a replacement to mouse+keyboard that doesn't work on a regular PC? Is it not possible to connect a regular PC to a television?
What is the difference between a Steambox and a HTPC with the same hardware in it?

What does a console offer that a PC doesn't? A single ecosystem? A terrible control system? If you want to bottom line it like that, that's about it.

You need to follow the OS and the licensing. Microsoft is headed to a closed ecosystem, has always had outrageous licensing fees, and is in general a poor steward of any technology unless threatened. (Look how long it took them to make a modern browser until FireFox and then Chrome began to take market share)
The only reason they have been the leading platform for gaming is that PC's running MS Windows dominated the landscape. Consoles made major inroads into that market, but their hardware limitations, slow evolution, and lack of a viable controller for certain genre's of games, not to mention the high price of those games partly due to the necessity of physical media have prevented them from taking gaming away from the desktop. Many gamers I know would love to get away from Windows as a platform, but you play where the games are located and consoles today simply don't cut it.
Now you have Valve bringing a system that is open source sporting a free OS making the stewards the people who have driven a vast amount of the innovation in technology. Look at what Android did for mobile. While the box isn't going to be "One spec to rule them all, One spec to bind them", it will be limited enough to gain the benefits, especially since the different components appear to be limited to GPU (all Nvidia which has had the best drivers for their cards for years and years) and Intel CPU's. Since they do not vary wildly in their architecture, you really aren't going to have much in the way of compatibility issues with them. In fact, I don't think developers will see any adaptations to their code to accommodate the differences. So you still keep the benefits of a limited environment, but you can upgrade and so aren't limited to producing games for hardware that is now 8(!) years old. While not proven yet to my satisfaction, the new controller designed for the Steambox appears to at least have the potential to replace the mouse/keyboard combo in a way that the Xbox and PS have not. Finally, we are ALL familiar with what Steam has done for the price of PC games. They drove GameStop out of the PC gaming market in their storefronts. When you can play your games on a console for $20 instead of $60, MS and Sony are going to see a sharp decline in the sale of their own systems. All in all it has the potential to bring the best of both worlds to the gaming community and perhaps if successful enough, finally really bridge the gap between PC and console gamers.

[cmp]

What does a console offer that a PC doesn't? A single ecosystem? A terrible control system? If you want to bottom line it like that, that's about it.

Uh, the certainty that games will run on it? A different game pool?


I think it's impressive how Valve managed to convince people that a PC in a box and a rebranded Linux are the future of gaming and can challenge consoles. I knew they were good at marketing, but I never imagined they were this good.

[Leshma]

What is the difference between a Steambox and a HTPC with the same hardware in it?

So far, there's no difference. HTPC capable of playing games, running SteamOS is Steambox. But it won't perform the same in newer games if it has hardware that's not in "official" SteamMachines that will arrive on market next year. Think of Mac OSX, difference is that SteamOS can be installed on much wider range of machines without messing with kext files. But it won't be optimized for every hardware combination. But if you have compatible hardware, there will be no difference. It will perform just like SteamMachine bought in the store.

Uh, the certainty that games will run on it? A different game pool?

I'm fairly sure that games like HL3, TF3, L4D3 and Portal 3 will be timed SteamOS exclusives.