Nudge vs Kick discrepancies

[rustyspoon]

Why do nudges have cooldowns that delay a follow-up nudge or kick, yet kicks do not have cooldowns to subsequent kicks?

Since this got moved, thought I'd update.

Currently kicks have no cooldown, have area of effect and long range.

Nudges have cooldown, (that also effects kicks) no area of effect and short range.

If you nudge, your only way to defend against kicks is to back up and hope you're out of range. You lose the ability to chamber kick or nudge until the cooldown passes. Kicks don't have this problem. If you're fighting against someone who kicks, you're better off never nudging as you're better off chamber-kicking which has no cooldown.

Kicks are overall vastly superior to nudges. To bring them into balance, kicks should have the same cooldown as nudges.

This would also stop you from being able to chain kicks. (something that I also abuse the hell out of)

FIX DEM KICKS!

[Vodner]

Kicks already have a built-in delay between kick attempts (which, interestingly enough, is tied to jumping as well).

[Tibe]

Kick has a cooldown from nudge cause nudge-kicking used to be a common practice mainly used by megadouchebagskilllessplayers. And this was the way to punish those lame individuals. And nudge having a cooldown on nudge? I dont think I need to explain why not having it on cooldown is a bad idea.

[MURDERTRON]

Kicks leave you immobile and vulnerable, nudges do not.

[rustyspoon]

Kicks already have a built-in delay between kick attempts (which, interestingly enough, is tied to jumping as well).

Which is also shorter than the delay between nudges.

Say someone goes to kick me and I nudge. The kick connects, my nudge doesn't. (kicks have the benefit of range and cone-of-effect)

I fall down, they hit me and can immediately kick again. I cannot nudge or chamber-kick. My only option is hoping they hesitated on their follow-up kick so that I can back up enough to be out of the cone of effect.

If you're an aggressive player fighting someone who kicks often, you're better off not nudging so that you can keep your kicks for chamber kicks as it has a much shorter cooldown period.

[Jarlek]

If I kick someone, I get a free hit.

If I nudge someone, I don't.*
* (unless 1h no shield on left swing with enough wpf and a fastish weapon).

Why is the timer on the nudges and not on kicks? If you want to have a timer, at least have it on both. The time between kicks is way too low compared to the time between nudges, and kicks are the ones that give you free hits.


The problem with kicking after nudges doesn't really exist anymore. When nudges first came, they made you unable to move while you were being nudged, so kicking a guy right after a nudge was really easy. Now that nudging doesn't stop you from moving, you can just backpedal away from the kick, just as if you weren't being nudged. The only nudge that stops you from moving are the shoves (defend + nudge), and they push you out of kick range anyway.

You also you got a timer after nudging, meaning nudge&kick is no longer problem. Even if they removed the timer, being kicked after being nudged is pretty hard (assuming it's from the same person).

The only time I would think it could happen, would be if someone shoved you into a wall/object really close, and then kicking you. But you would still be able to chamberkick so it's still counter-able.

[Phew]

Nudge is more of a group fight mechanic, allowing your teammate to get a hit. In 1v1, it can disrupt the flow of the fight, but not give any kind of clear advantage (except knockdown or gravity kill in specific situations). The different nudge options all present balanced risk/reward propositions.

Kick is more of a 1v1 mechanic than nudge, but overall its risk/reward proposition is not balanced; attempting a kick during your attack phase presents only the very slight risk of being chamber kicked/knocked down (probably <10% chance of getting kick chambered against a typical player). If you succeed, you have a 100% chance of a free hit, with additional chance of knockdown if your weapon has that feature. Low risk, high reward.

When I'm fighting a highly skilled player that doesn't abuse kicks, I know it's going to be a tough fight, but I can win if I don't make mistakes. When I'm fighting a kick spammer (even if their footwork/blocking isn't very good), I often feel like there's nothing I can do. If I'm close enough to land a hit, I'm close enough to be kicked.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

I think the most ridiculous thing about kicks right now is that they seem to be activated for like 1 second. I mean that you see the opponent clearly missing his kick (out of range), then you go in to hit him and you run into his kick still being active!

Here, run into my foot you fucker, I'll just hold in the air so you will stumble when you try to come near me!

[Jona]

Nudge is more of a group fight mechanic, allowing your teammate to get a hit. In 1v1, it can disrupt the flow of the fight, but not give any kind of clear advantage (except knockdown or gravity kill in specific situations). The different nudge options all present balanced risk/reward propositions.

Kick is more of a 1v1 mechanic than nudge, but overall its risk/reward proposition is not balanced; attempting a kick during your attack phase presents only the very slight risk of being chamber kicked/knocked down (probably <10% chance of getting kick chambered against a typical player). If you succeed, you have a 100% chance of a free hit, with additional chance of knockdown if your weapon has that feature. Low risk, high reward.

When I'm fighting a highly skilled player that doesn't abuse kicks, I know it's going to be a tough fight, but I can win if I don't make mistakes. When I'm fighting a kick spammer (even if their footwork/blocking isn't very good), I often feel like there's nothing I can do. If I'm close enough to land a hit, I'm close enough to be kicked.

Being a more aggressive, and agility-based player, I honestly hate any and all kick spammers. If I run at them to get a swing in, they just kick me.. and despite 8 athletics I can't sidestep or back out in time. If they go to attack me and then instead kick for the free hit, the only way to not get hit is to just be an S key hero, which is no fun for either player. If I am strafing back and forth and they kick, no matter where I am positioned relative to their foot, so long as I am somewhere in front of them, I will be kicked due to the conical area of effect. Or, on the off chance their kick misses, I strafe back in front of them only to be kicked as their foot retracts while they ready their next swing...

Kicks are really too good when used against players who move around a lot (and you know, use footwork). The only thing kicks encourage is you to go full str and just spam E whenever you face an agi build. If you move slowly, odds are you won't run into the retracting-foot kicks. If someone moves faster than you, odds are they will run into it. Then all you have to do is kick them once or twice for 2 guaranteed hits with 13 or so PS and well.. they're dead. And of course if you have got 13 IF then there is really a very low risk involved with kicking.

Not to mention that they un-nerfed kicks so that they DO stop swings in their tracks once again... and I coulda sworn that yesterday people were blocking while kicking... not like they could hold a block and kick.. but whereas before kicking left you open to a free hit if you missed, now I have seem some able to block while the kicking animation isnt even over, like when their foot is retracting they are able to block. Last I checked it would be quite difficult to stop a full speed swing from a giant axe while balanced on one foot. Should really give a knockdown effect if nothing else.

So yeah...

FUCKIN NERF KICKS ALREADY!




/rage

(click to show/hide)

Am I the only one that was incredibly surprised when nudges actually got fixed within just a few weeks? That was totally amazing, in all honesty, and I applaud the devs who worked on that. Good job. But any long-standing issue with this game will apparently never be fixed... kicks, 2handers, the tendency for all throwing weps or xbows to just automatically hit you in the face, even after 180-degree spins.. all of that will probably never be fixed at this rate. I am really curious to see what will become of the new insta-1h-lolstab. Will it go the way of the nudge? Probably not. Does 98.2% of the crpg community hope it does? Yes. I really enjoy the buffed sideswing animation, but I finally tried the stab for myself on an alt yesterday, and it was just way too good.

[Gurnisson]

The attack version of the 1h nudge is overpowered, because it gives you a free hit. While the other nudges are great for ganks, they don't give you any real power in 1v1, except breaking rhytm, which is the opposite of kicks which doesn't contribute much in ganks (unless someone goes into a corner), but is very good in 1v1. 1h attack nudge combines the good part of both, being able to move while performing it and also giving a free hit. Too good, needs a nerf.

[Erzengel]

The attack version of the 1h nudge is overpowered, because it gives you a free hit. While the other nudges are great for ganks, they don't give you any real power in 1v1, except breaking rhytm, which is the opposite of kicks which doesn't contribute much in ganks (unless someone goes into a corner), but is very good in 1v1. 1h attack nudge combines the good part of both, being able to move while performing it and also giving a free hit. Too good, needs a nerf.

Which is not intented and will be fixed in the next patch.

[Phew]

The attack version of the 1h nudge is overpowered, because it gives you a free hit. While the other nudges are great for ganks, they don't give you any real power in 1v1, except breaking rhytm, which is the opposite of kicks which doesn't contribute much in ganks (unless someone goes into a corner), but is very good in 1v1. 1h attack nudge combines the good part of both, being able to move while performing it and also giving a free hit. Too good, needs a nerf.

Now that people can't kick after landing the 1h attack nudge, it doesn't seem so OP now. A "free" hit is really only possible with perfect positioning and 100+ speed weapons (typically swords with weak cut), and nearly impossible with the blunt weapons that can knockdown and lead to multiple "free" hits. Rusty could probably answer in more detail, since he was the worst abuser of the 1h attack nudge+kick combo right after they added it. I don't think I've even noticed him nudging after they put kick on the same cooldown; and if anyone could get a free hit out of this nudge, it would be Rusty.

[San]

Nah, it's too good. You can get a free hit every time with the 100+ speed weapons easily.

REALLY satisfying doing this to hoplites, but yeah..

[Paul]

You can counter an attack nudge with a normal nudge. Even if the attack nudge already landed.

[Utrakil]

I think the cooldown could be much shorter.
Now you have to think if you want to waste your nudge because you can't counter-kick or -nudge for some time.
would be nice if the delay between nudges are about the same than between kicks( just long enough not to allow combos). so they become a much more natural weapon to use.