Javelins

[Vermilion]

Current Javelins stats                                         Current Jarid stats                                          Current Francisca stats                                  Current Throwing axe stats
Missile speed - 19                                               Missile speed - 20                                           Missile speed - 15                                           Missile speed - 15
Weight - 4                                                           Weight - 4                                                       Weight - 2.7                                                   Weight - 3
Accuracy - 113                                                     Accuracy - 127                                                 Accuracy - 113                                                Accuracy - 12
Difficulty - 3                                                         Difficulty - 5                                                      Difficulty - 2                                                     Difficulty - 3
Ammo - 3                                                             Ammo - 3                                                         Ammo - 4                                                        Ammo - 3
Thrust damage - 33 pierce                                  Thrust damage - 40 pierce                              Thrust damage - 31 cut                                  Thrust damage - 39 cut



I propose changing their stats to -

New Javelins stats                           
Missile speed - 19                                               
Weight - 3.5         
Accuracy - 115     
Difficulty - 4                   
Ammo - 5     
Thrust damage - 30 pierce

This is closer to the difference between Francisca and Throwing axe. Also closer between Francisca and Javelins (cut vs pierce) just like Jarid and throwing axe.

I believe this will make Javelins more useful/worthwhile. (A mid tier pierce throwing weapon)

(all stats not mentioned remaining the same)

EDIT - Moved stat list closer together.. looked great on my PC screens but shit on my smaller laptop screen

[Tears of Destiny]

I'm not sure I like the idea of five 30 pierce javelins, it just seems a bit much even when compared to wardarts and their six.


Just a gut feeling though.

[Vermilion]

Just trying to find a mid point between War darts and Jarid

              War darts  -  Jarid       
Ammo            6        -     3                     
Difficulty         2       -     5
Accuracy      107      -    127
Damage        25      -     40
Weight          3        -     4


Also if you imagine war darts have the potential for 6x25 damage, at 5x30 you have the same total damage potential. However, it's at a higher difficulty, cost and weight. pretend you didn't see that

[Jarold]

This would help javelins be used more.

[Bulzur]

So... basically...

New Javelins get :
-0.5 weight, wich is also -14% weight
+2 accuracy, wich is also +2% accuracy
+1 difficulty to a total of 4, wich honestly, nobody cares about since throwers usually have at least 5 PT
-3 pierce damage, wich is -10% base damage
+2 ammo, wich is +66% ammo


Balancing Arguments :
Why +2 ammo and not just +1, since you're comparing the difference between Javelins and Jarids, with Franciscas and Throwing Axes ?
When heirlooming a throwing item, you don't add ammo, but boost stats. So the difference between the heirloomed old Javelins and the new ones you propose is actually much bigger than looking at the unheirloomed version difference.

Realism Arguments :
How the hell can you explain how adding 2 more javelins, all of them having slightly less steel for damage, actually lowers the total weight of that item ?

Just trying to find a mid point between War darts and Jarid
Also if you imagine war darts have the potential for 6x25 damage, at 5x30 you have the same total damage potential. However, it's at a higher difficulty, cost and weight.

Woot ? How can you compare things brutally like that ? Do you know how damage works in cRPG ?
*My item does 25 damage, so it does 25 damage ?*

If you really want to compare, do it well :
I'm not really knowledgeable about the wpf, so i'll stupidly toss it out. Feel free to post an advanced reflexion with that one, but the result will, i believe, remain the same.

Basic lv30 NoSTR Thrower A: 18 STR, 6 PT : +60% dmg, 163 wpf : + ??% dmg
Basic lv30 FullSTR Thrower B: 24 STR, 8 PT : +80% dmg, 143 wpf : + ??% dmg

*It seems we don't have a throwing damage calculator, so, stupidly, i'll use the melee one (10 PS = 8 PT in bonus dmg), assuming speed bonus situationally helps*

With 25 pierce :
Basic Opponent : 35 body armor : A does 22 dmg average   B does 27 dmg average
Armored Opponent : 60 body armor : A does 12 dmg average   B does 16 dmg average

With 30 pierce :
Basic Opponent : 35 body armor : A does  28 dmg average   B does   33 dmg average
Armored Opponent : 60 body armor : A does 17 dmg average       B does   23 dmg average


Quick Maths :
6*22 = 132 ; 6*27 = 162 ; 6*12 = 72 ; 6*16 = 96   
5*28 = 140 ; 5*33 = 165 ; 5*17 = 85 ; 5*23 = 115

Unbelievable !!! 6x25 base damage is inferior to 5x30 base damage !
And that means succeeding in hitting the guy 6 times, and not just 5. Incredible.




Quick conclusion :

At the moment, yes, Javelins are slightly underpowered.
Then again, at difficulty 3, they're meant to be used in the beginning only. Just like you'd rather use Throwing Axes over Franciscas.
Your suggestion would make them really a bit too strong.
I wouldn't mind adding 1 ammo, and slightly lowering base damage to 30, but without touching the weight and the accuracy. This, in itself, would already be a nice addition.

[Vermilion]

Thanks for your feedback but I think you have been one sided and not objective. (Also, as you say we don't have a throwing calc so I have no idea how accurate your sums are)

You've explored the increased damage from the 6 war darts to the suggested new javelin stats..
(which your results by the way are a bit pointless, yes 5 javelins would do more damage than 6 war darts.. but war darts are a cheap low tier weapons, whilst the javelins would be a more expensive mid-tier weapons.. so you would expect a higher damage, you need to show the damage difference cause by other weapons to give these results any meaning... 96 compared to 115 currently has very little meaning, at least to me.)

But you haven't compared the difference created by the 10 less piece damage compared to the previous 7.

Please do your sums for 5 30 pierce compared to 3 40 pierce
I think (hopefully ) you will find this is less damage, which works for it being a mid-tier weapon. (If not then redesigning the stats may be necessary)

Other things you have mentioned again aren't objective to other items.. Such as the weight. Yes just saying adding 2 more but removing some damage doesn't justify -0-5 weight. But when you compare it to other weapons, currently the weigh the same as Jarids YET do less damage and are shorter.. So this is because currently they're over weighted. (but if keeping it at 4 justifies the other stats then this can be adjusted.)

As I mentioned at the start, I don't know how reliable your figures are.. also think you have underestimated the affect of the additional PT, this cases increase wpf requirements and reduces their use as an item to use on the way into melee. Your wpf/pt stats used in your sums is also based on pure throwers, most throwers are hybrids, the majority I see have shields which causes a wpf drop. This may need to be taken into account into your sums.. Like working out 1h weapon stats, for +95% (estimate) of one handers these are point less unless taking the shield effect into account.

- Throwing raw damage is similiar too:

Code: [Select]

Weapon_damage*(throwing_wpf*0.01*0.15+0.85)*(power_throw*0.1+1.0)+strength/5.0

I don't know if this can help your sums or not..

For my stats (at 30) 125 wpf, 7 PT, 21 strength

25 pierce = 48     (-9)
30 pierce = 57
40 pierce = 75    (+18)

[Bulzur]

You've explored the increased damage from the 6 war darts to the suggested new javelin stats..
(which your results by the way are a bit pointless, yes 5 javelins would do more damage than 6 war darts.. but war darts are a cheap low tier weapons,

Well, you said it was the same damage, so i just showed why it was false.^^


Thanks for the real formula : Weapon_damage*(throwing_wpf*0.01*0.15+0.85)*(power_throw*0.1+1.0)+strength/5.0

For my stats (at 30) 125 wpf, 7 PT, 21 strength

25 pierce = 48     (-9)
30 pierce = 57
40 pierce = 75    (+18)

Well, if it's that : 5*57= 285  and 3*75= 225
Since there's also the fact that people are armored, i don't know what fraction to take away for that. But it should be pretty even i guess.

5 ammo is too much for this kind of stats. You also have completely slipped by how it would affect heirloomed versions of the model.

[Herkkutatti666]

New Javelins stats                           
Missile speed - 19                                               
Weight - 3.5         
Accuracy - 115     
Difficulty - 4                   
Ammo - 5     
Thrust damage - 30 pierce

No.

[Vermilion]

Well, if it's that : 5*57= 285  and 3*75= 225
Since there's also the fact that people are armored, i don't know what fraction to take away for that. But it should be pretty even i guess.

5 ammo is too much for this kind of stats. You also have completely slipped by how it would affect heirloomed versions of the model.

The heirlooming changes are the same for war darts, javelins and Jarids... So I don't see what the issue is here?

[Bulzur]

The heirlooming changes are the same for war darts, javelins and Jarids... So I don't see what the issue is here?

The issue is heirlooming changes boosts nearly everything, except ammo.
So balancing Javelins by adding ammo, and slightly nerfing other stats, would mean having slightly overpowered +3 Javelins.

Example :

So... basically...

New Javelins get :
-0.5 weight, wich is also -14% weight
+2 accuracy, wich is also +2% accuracy
+1 difficulty to a total of 4, wich honestly, nobody cares about since throwers usually have at least 5 PT
-3 pierce damage, wich is -10% base damage
+2 ammo, wich is +66% ammo

For heirloomed new Javelins, vs heirloomed old Javelins, this % difference become :
New Javelins get :
-0.5 weight, wich is also -14% weight
+2 accuracy, wich is also +1.9% accuracy
+1 difficulty to a total of 4, wich honestly, nobody cares about since throwers usually have at least 5 PT
-3 pierce damage, wich is -8.1% base damage
+2 ammo, wich is +66% ammo

All the disadvantages are "lesser" in proportion, while the advantages remain exactly the same.
To realize how "different" it is, consider a +1 New Javelin. Now, it's not suppose to be "that" much stronger to the normal version, but only slightly.
Now compare this +1 New Javelin to the +0 Old Javelin. (yes, there's a 1 heirloom point difference, but look at the difference)

New +1 Javelins vs +0 old Javelins get :
-0.5 weight, wich is also -14% weight
+4 accuracy, wich is also +4% accuracy
+1 difficulty to a total of 4, wich honestly, nobody cares about since throwers usually have at least 5 PT
-1 pierce damage, wich is -3.4% base damage
+2 ammo, wich is +66% ammo

The fact that you're trying to balance this item by adding 2 more ammo, makes it totally different from it's predecessor.
The more you'll upgrade it, the more difference you'll notice. +2 ammo for any 3 ammo based weapon is a HUGE boost, that a slight -3 damage is nothing when compared.
Even more if you get back thoses -3 damage in only 2 heirloom points (while also gaining other stats).


If you still don't get what i'm saying, consider the Jarids. Then consider that heirlooming them actually gives a total of -3 pierce, +2 ammo, +2 speed, +5 accuracy. Won't you find that OP ? Trading 3 damage for 2 whole new Jarids ?

[Vermilion]

With proposed stats -

                      War darts rank 0       Javelins rank 0       Jarids rank 0
Speed                       20                            19                         20
Ammo                        6                               5                           3
Difficulty                     2                              4                           5
Accuracy                  107                           115                       127
Damage                    25                            30                         40
Weight                      3                              3.5                         4


                      War darts rank 3       Javelins rank 3       Jarids rank 3
Speed                      22                              21                        22
Ammo                        6                               5                           3
Difficulty                    2                                4                          5
Accuracy                 112                            117                       132
Damage                   29                              34                         44
Weight                     3                               3.5                         4


I really don't see what you're getting at.. This all looks fine to me.

[Phew]

You are missing the practical matter that the Javelin model shows the remaining ammo in the quiver, so changing the ammo count would require a new model. Whereas changing damage/speed/accuracy/etc doesn't require a new model. So unless you make said model, your suggestion will probably get shot down by the devs.

I'd rather see Javelins get a different niche than just be halfway between War Darts and Jarids in ammo and damage; maybe give them much higher missile speed than other throwing weapons, so you could actually hit distant players with them? Just a thought.

[Vermilion]

True I hadn't thought of that...

However, when you have multiple stacks it only counts down the last stack anyway.. So it would still give you the last 3 count down. (Which personally I think if absolutely fine, to me it's a pretty pointless animation.. either do the lot or just the last 3 is sufficient)

EDIT - Thanks by the way for a proper piece of feedback. Do you (or anyone reading this) know about arrow models? Do they have a different one for each loom which shows the exact number of arrows?
Also this is another reason why it would be great to hear back from a Dev about this.. If this is actually an issue and a model is required to make a change to the Javelins, I'm sure I could get one... bound to be a member of this community which will make one for a gold/LP payment.. Or I will just learn how to design these models (Haven't done any graphical modeling in years)

[Digglez]

terrible idea and you clearly arent a thrower.  THe problem with javs is they already do dick for damage and are so slow to throw...this would make them even less used