Author Topic: Gaming Expert Pat Robertson: ‘Murdering Somebody In Cyberspace’ same as murder  (Read 14338 times)

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Offline Christo

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Checking back on this thread after some days

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Offline EponiCo

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Although your question is to Kafein, that's pretty much semantics, since no one can "know the state of the entire universe."

Unless it's a purely hypothetical fun question. But if you assume knowing the state of the universe = observing everything, then it follows that you've observed the particle in question, like you said. But if that's the assumption, then there's no question, is there? If you've observed it then you've observed it. I'm ASSuming Kafein means something else by "knowing the state of the universe."

Yes, pretty much. But maybe I am missing the point here. My assumption is basically this:
Indeterminism is only really surprising if you know all about the particle in question (and all things causally affecting it). But if you do know and indeterminism still "happens", then where does this lead to the conclusion that the particle actually is in several states (especially if know=observe=one state)? It's fine to just assume so for working purposes, of course (but you don't need indeterminism do do that).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:23:14 pm by EponiCo »

Offline Molly

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Einstein's inertial frames are way better suited for Religion than Schrödinger and his equations  :? Hell, even Heisenberg could be better misinterpreted than Schrödinger :|
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Offline Kafein

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Suddenly, this thread turns into a physics meeting.

What I meant by "knowing the state of the entire universe" is that if you know in what state the entire universe was one nanosecond (or any other length of time) ago, that still isn't enough to causally infere in what state that specific particle is now (one nanosecond later). What I'm doing here is basically acknowledging quantum randomness and the absence of perfect causality.


The thing with Shrodinger's cat is that even if you know the decay rate of whatever radioactive stuff you are using, what happens in practice is random. If you leave the cat for one minute inside the box, you know what are the odds it is dead, but you don't know whether it is or not, and you could very well design the experiment in a way that the only way to know is to observe inside the box. When you think about it, everything in life is like that because everything is linked, strongly or not, to quantum physics and randomness.

For one, why would only a human eye count as an observer, and the cat itself doesn't count? Also with the standard interpretation we get a "Schrödinger's cat inside a box, inside a box, inside a box" scenario if, for example, there's someone else outside the room when you open the box. From their perspective, you found either a dead cat or a live cat, and until they walk in the room and see which one is true, and the wavefunction collapses. And from the perspective of someone in another room... and outside the building.. and outside the city... what's outside all of those boxes that's causing the wavefunction to collapse?

The uncertainty is an individual thing, it's not the universe witnessing you specifically are trying to fuck with him and suddenly says "this particle will collapse its wavefunction !" when you observe it. The experiment can even be seen from the perspective of the device that detects radioactive decay. When it detects a gamma ray or whatever, its uncertainty about when the phenomenon actually happens dissappears, but yours does not.

Offline Necrorave

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My simple mind only cared for this.

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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Checking back on this thread after some days

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That's how I feel, I've been tempted to lock it for over a week...but I'll let these nerds keep talking.

I wonder if Yaro still wants to fight me?

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Offline Xant

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The uncertainty is an individual thing, it's not the universe witnessing you specifically are trying to fuck with him and suddenly says "this particle will collapse its wavefunction !" when you observe it. The experiment can even be seen from the perspective of the device that detects radioactive decay. When it detects a gamma ray or whatever, its uncertainty about when the phenomenon actually happens dissappears, but yours does not.
The experiment can indeed be seen from the perspective of the Geiger counter, which means it makes even less sense following the CI of quantum mechanics. Your view of the thought experiment is not really the standard one, or even the common non-standard one, but I won't say it's wrong because there's fuckloads of interpretations. The universe is not witnessing you doing something and deciding to fuck with you by collapsing the wavefunction when you witness it, but that's what happens (according to CI), and there is only one world so that means the cat is either alive or dead, not some kind of a superposition of both - the uncertainty exists only in the mind of those who don't yet know it. One explanation that subscribes to the CI of QM is that when millions or billions of particles combine to form a macroscopic object (cat), quantum phenomena essentially disappear, as they're all essentially observing each other and continually collapsing their each others' wavefunctions.

Also, a lot of the phenomena is because an observer is going to change things simply by observing, so the mere act of observing changes things because quantum mechanics deals with such small objects. A cat is not a small object and won't physically change as a result of being observed.  But what 'observation' really is and does and if it's a special process is also up for debate, so... again depending on which interpretation you're going with.

Anyway, this clears most stuff up about the whole Schrödinger's cat business pretty well:

Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, the paradox is a classic reductio ad absurdum. The thought experiment illustrates quantum mechanics and the mathematics necessary to describe quantum states. Intended as a critique of just the Copenhagen interpretation (the prevailing orthodoxy in 1935), the Schrödinger cat thought experiment remains a typical touchstone for limited interpretations of quantum mechanics. Physicists often use the way each interpretation deals with Schrödinger's cat as a way of illustrating and comparing the particular features, strengths, and weaknesses of each interpretation.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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stfu already make a physics thread

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Offline Xant

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Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline CrazyCracka420

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lol xant, nice find.

it's funny that they come to the conclusion "the banana was created for man", instead of the inverse, that man's hands evolved to fit around objects such as the banana.

Without knowing anything about anything, either could be equally as much chance of being right as the other, so why do they choose to go with the creationist reasoning?
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Offline Xant

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No, actually, the banana is the result of intelligent design. It was designed... by humans.

Here's a wild banana.

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With inedible seeds.

Ray Comfort's comeback to this fact was "well but God gave man the knowledge and ability to modify it so it could perfectly fit in his hand!"

Of course, there's also about a million other things wrong about what he says.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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No, actually, the banana is the result of intelligent design. It was designed... by humans.

Here's a wild banana.

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With inedible seeds.

Oh right, actually I should have known that.  I remember looking up plantains and the history of bananas not too long ago (when a cafeteria was serving something with plantains and i wasn't  sure what it was). 

That makes the video even more hilarious :P
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Offline Xant

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If you really want to kill your braincells, you watch this.

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Offline Kafein

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Ray Comfort's comeback to this fact was "well but God gave man the knowledge and ability to modify it so it could perfectly fit in his hand!"

How can he acknowledge genetical manipulations but not evolution ?

If you really want to kill your braincells, you watch this.


The part about "how many lies have you told" "are you a liar" is priceless.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 02:28:41 am by Kafein »

Offline Christo

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If you really want to kill your braincells, you watch this.


What the fuck?  :lol:

How can you even criticize some theories, wrong or not with such zeal, when the asker believes in imaginary sky god written in a fairytale book re-written by humans during the course of history?

Hilarious how both sides are flawed.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 09:18:41 am by Christo »
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