Author Topic: Gaming Expert Pat Robertson: ‘Murdering Somebody In Cyberspace’ same as murder  (Read 14351 times)

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Offline Malaclypse

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World war three is here and has been for awhile; it's the war for our minds. If you're exercising independent thought and generating your own culture, you're winning. If you're buying into cultural models, like myself (at least in part) and most of us, you're losing, and, moreover, you're choosing to.
You think you're pretty smart with your dago mustache and your greasy hair.

Offline Xant

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im not saying theres more than one truth - the only truth i believe in, is that we're alive. Religion tries to explain that and is sold as "THE truth" - and thats just wrong. Thats all i'm saying.
You use the word "truth" very strangely. Try replacing it with "fact" or something and there'll be less confusion.
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Offline Xant

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Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Daunt_Flockula

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How can it be considered real murder when you are murdering people in cyberspace just to subside the potential murder-maniac inside you?

Oh... Wait...

Offline zagibu

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The problem with this is that religious ideas cannot be falsified by taking a measurement. Which makes them irrelevant in my eyes, but not in the eyes of billions of people, unfortunately.
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Offline Xant

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The problem with this is that religious ideas cannot be falsified by taking a measurement. Which makes them irrelevant in my eyes, but not in the eyes of billions of people, unfortunately.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/i8/religions_claim_to_be_nondisprovable/
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Offline Kafein

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Offline Tomas

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How the hell is there supposed to be more than 1 "truth" to things.

Schroedinger's Cat - theoretically the cat is both alive and dead up until it is observed, although the definition of observed is up for debate :D

Interestingly (and from my limited perspective) quantum mechanics in this respect seems very like religion to me, with multiple "interpretations" that we do not currently have the technology to prove (or disprove) and so various scientists "believe" in whichever interpretation best fits the purposes of their own research.  I'm sure people with a better grasp on quantum mechanics will dispute this though :D


Offline Erasmas

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And it clearly turned out to be true. GO = organized crime  :D :D :D
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Offline EponiCo

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Schroedinger's Cat - theoretically the cat is both alive and dead up until it is observed, although the definition of observed is up for debate :D

Interestingly (and from my limited perspective) quantum mechanics in this respect seems very like religion to me, with multiple "interpretations" that we do not currently have the technology to prove (or disprove) and so various scientists "believe" in whichever interpretation best fits the purposes of their own research.  I'm sure people with a better grasp on quantum mechanics will dispute this though :D

Someone, I don't know who (Feinman? Hawkings?), said he'd like to shoot everyone abusing Schroedinger's Cat. So, you and me both, we are maybe living a dangerous life. :)
My understanding of QM is fairly limitied, but afaik it's like this.
There is some math that physicist largely (*) agree works on quantum particles. This math has the possibility of adding up functions that describe the state of a particle to get the full state of a particle. Like particle=(up+left) (particle is going up left). But in some cases the complete opposites are added. So like particle=(up+down). And this works. There's mathematical operations one can do with that that will make those functions "collapse" and "foretell" the results of an observation. What they disagree is what this actually means.. Thus there are several interpretations. Schroedinger argues that a too literal interpretation of the math leads to the conclusion that an unobserved cat is both alive and dead (I call it undead). And thus is silly. (I.e. Schroedinger never meant to say cats are like this, it is a silly example of how an interpretation in his eyes goes wrong).
Which interpretation to prefer is a philosophical question since you can't experiment on it (unlike on the mthematical results) and perhaps never will. The popular idea that everything in science has to be experimentally "proven" is flawed though, since that's not only not how it goes, but also logically impossible.

(*) Legend has it that there is at least one physicist who has argued that QM doesn't work and he has been demoted to mathematician.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 10:10:44 pm by EponiCo »

Offline Xant

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The cat is either alive or dead, observation doesn't change reality, just lets you update your map of it.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Kafein

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The cat is either alive or dead, observation doesn't change reality, just lets you update your map of it.

That's the impression most people get from the experiment, but in the traditional Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, some things that you don't know actually are in multiple states at the same time until you observe them. This because there is no other way than observation to know in what state they are. Radioactive decay like other quantum phenomena, is a truly random process. This means you cannot deduce something about the particle even if you know the state of the entire universe. It simply isn't linked to anything so the result is random. This is why observation is the only way to know and we may as well suppose those things don't really have a state until they are observed.

Offline Xant

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That's the impression most people get from the experiment, but in the traditional Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, some things that you don't know actually are in multiple states at the same time until you observe them. This because there is no other way than observation to know in what state they are. Radioactive decay like other quantum phenomena, is a truly random process. This means you cannot deduce something about the particle even if you know the state of the entire universe. It simply isn't linked to anything so the result is random. This is why observation is the only way to know and we may as well suppose those things don't really have a state until they are observed.
Observation is the only way to know, yes. But the superposition is true only on a metaphysical and probabilistic level. Physical reality is different. Updating your map does not update the territory. Schrödinger proposed the thought experiment to show that it's ridiculous to apply quantum mechanical concepts (well, the standard/Copenhagen Interpretation, Many Worlds/Mangled Worlds still works) to macroscopic objects, like a cat.

What you're saying is a reasonable view of the thought experiment, but it's not what most people mean when they go about shouting "the cat is both alive and dead!" They don't mean to say that "since we don't know, we might just as well assume the cat is neither until we see the state of the cat for ourselves, since we can't predict it either way." They mean that the cat exists in both states, and neither, at the same time, like an electron in superposition. Which makes no sense with the cat if you use the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM. For one, why would only a human eye count as an observer, and the cat itself doesn't count? Also with the standard interpretation we get a "Schrödinger's cat inside a box, inside a box, inside a box" scenario if, for example, there's someone else outside the room when you open the box. From their perspective, you found either a dead cat or a live cat, and until they walk in the room and see which one is true, and the wavefunction collapses. And from the perspective of someone in another room... and outside the building.. and outside the city... what's outside all of those boxes that's causing the wavefunction to collapse?

But all of that applies only if you believe in the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM, which is very probably wrong. Many Worlds seems by far the most probable explanation given the evidence we have so far. Single-world versions of quantum mechanics don't work, and the rejection of MWI mostly stems from some physicists getting the probability theory of Occam's Razor wrong -- or just not plain knowing about it.
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Offline EponiCo

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If you know the state of the entire universe haven't you observed the entire universe? Since by your words observation is the only way to know. You have then also logically observed the particle in question. So you know the state it is in.
So arguably, if radioactive decay is truly random and even knowing the state of the entire universe and of the particle in question you could not foretell when it happens, does that not show something entirely else than the particle being in two states?

Offline Xant

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Although your question is to Kafein, that's pretty much semantics, since no one can "know the state of the entire universe."

Unless it's a purely hypothetical fun question. But if you assume knowing the state of the universe = observing everything, then it follows that you've observed the particle in question, like you said. But if that's the assumption, then there's no question, is there? If you've observed it then you've observed it. I'm ASSuming Kafein means something else by "knowing the state of the universe."
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 04:44:18 am by Xant »
Meaning lies as much
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