Why oh why are 2h and pole arms still OP?

[YetiFiasco]

I'm a sword and board with 8 shield and 160WP with the fastest single handed sword (Nordic) and people in full plate/black armor can STILL helicopter around and eviscerate me with literally no chance to attack back between swings.

Why is this so? 2h and polearms already do drastically greater damage than single handed weapons (rightfully so) and have greater range, so why must they be faster?

The proof of this that every high-roller on every CRPG server is either rolling cav or 2h/polearm as it's main predator the javelin got nerfed (Probably under complaints from the plate wearing helicopters that something could actually kill them).

So, either un-nerf throwing (preferable, as they weren't OP in the first place, having little ammo and being easy to kill close up) or slow 2h and pole arms considerably so you can't swing a 10ft poleaxe faster than a small sword.

[RandomDude]

ive seen 1h topping boards today too

not as many as 2h of course but... this is how people usually play warband multiplayer;

1) Either start as archer or 1h/shield or switch to them after being owned and unable to manual block
2) Become really good at their chosen class
3) Go to duel servers to become even better
4) Some decide to go 2h/pole for more "challenge" (not saying 1h is easy to be good at, just easier to play without manual block)
5) The players who have been playing for some time and have put time into duel servers and learning new tricks now top score boards

This is how I see it, or it could all be bs.

[Keshian]

Same thing as before, you want to swing faster drop the shield.  1handers are faster than 2handers and polearms, just manual block once and move in clsoe you will outspam the crap out of them.  Shield users have a huge advantage of being able to hold a block for 90% of the time and actually ahve it autoblock incoming attacks, its a much more methodical way of fighting and yous wing slwoer with a shield, so your speed has to rely as much on good footwork and positioning as spamming.  Practice your footwork adn positioning or get rid of the shield and you will find you will hit first.

[YetiFiasco]

ive seen 1h topping boards today too

not as many as 2h of course but... this is how people usually play warband multiplayer;

1) Either start as archer or 1h/shield or switch to them after being owned and unable to manual block
2) Become really good at their chosen class
3) Go to duel servers to become even better
4) Some decide to go 2h/pole for more "challenge" (not saying 1h is easy to be good at, just easier to play without manual block)
5) The players who have been playing for some time and have put time into duel servers and learning new tricks now top score boards

This is how I see it, or it could all be bs.

How does this counter or validate my points at all?
What you're saying is basically people go 2h/pa for the challenge, so they're good because they have certain tricks they've picked up (like attacking really really fast, totally a trick)?

This is nonsense, they pick the best weapon (bek de corbin) and swing it furiously, most of the time they don't need to block more than once as they can relentlessly attack unless they come up against another plate helicopter, which just validates my point more as the only things they have to fear are people rolling the same build as them but with more heirlooms.

 And I've never seen a sword&board top the killboard for a whole round.

[Inkompetent]

Same thing as before, you want to swing faster drop the shield.  1handers are faster than 2handers and polearms, just manual block once and move in clsoe you will outspam the crap out of them.  Shield users have a huge advantage of being able to hold a block for 90% of the time and actually ahve it autoblock incoming attacks, its a much more methodical way of fighting and yous wing slwoer with a shield, so your speed has to rely as much on good footwork and positioning as spamming.  Practice your footwork adn positioning or get rid of the shield and you will find you will hit first.

This: I tend to get beaten to a bloody pulp by archers more often than 1h+shield guys, simply because I with my Long Axe go about even with the 1h+shield guy (unless he's exclusively 1h+shield, in which case he's faster if stacking agi), while I don't stand a friggin chance to keep up with a good fighter with only a one-hander. I simply can't block as fast as they can switch attack-directions.

Overall though, I don't tend to see *that* fast people with two-handers, unless they use a Long Sword or something similar in two hands.

I'd say that helicopter-attacking, the crazy circle-running movement speed, and attack speed from WPF all need a nerf. Let the actual weapon be a more deciding factor in speed imho, and don't make people change places faster than electrons in an atom.

[Rumblood]

Congratulations. You met Goretooth. He will own you with whatever build, even shield and sword.

To the rest of it, Kesh covered it. Your sword isn't slow, your shield is.

[YetiFiasco]

But without the shield, why use the sword?

Sword and shield should be the same speed as 2h/polearm

the difference between the two should ONLY be range and damage, the 2h/polearm having greater of both.

And this isnt just goretooth.

None of you are responding to any of these balancing issues I've raised, which leads me to believe you are ignoring them because you're the happy helicopters and you don't want it to change.

[San]

You should probably just accept that a properly built 2h is probably going to match or beat you in speed, range, and power up close. You need to outplay them in order to win.

[YetiFiasco]

You should probably just accept that a properly built 2h is probably going to match or beat you in speed, range, and power up close. You need to outplay them in order to win.

No, this is a terrible opinion, this obviously proves that it is imbalanced, you can't outplay someone who is faster, more powerful and out ranges you.

[Keshian]

But without the shield, why use the sword?

Sword and shield should be the same speed as 2h/polearm

the difference between the two should ONLY be range and damage, the 2h/polearm having greater of both.

And this isnt just goretooth.

None of you are responding to any of these balancing issues I've raised, which leads me to believe you are ignoring them because you're the happy helicopters and you don't want it to change.

let me guess, you use a huscarl?  Look for 100 speed shields, use a decent 1hander with 125+ wpf and you won't be outspammed if you simply know how to use proper footwork.  You are attacking and being attacked at roughly the same speed (block-attack-block-attack, not attack then get attack again without being hit in turn), however whoever angles themselves properly to the left if right swinging or right if left swinging will connect earlier in their swing (true for both you and your opponent), because you have a shorter weapon you have to turn more and shift footwork more to get that angled attack, but any good 1her can do it and actually swing and connect faster than their opponent no matter their weapon.  Don't try to blame entire classes for losing, instead, practice and learn to be better.

[YetiFiasco]

The only shields worth their use have 80-90 speed, others break after one hit from a 2h/pa weapon making them pointless, thus not a valid counter-point.

I'm not bad at the game. I kill people fine, other S&B's, archers and hoplites, the ONLY thing that owns me each and every time are helicopters, of which there are PLENTY.

My point still holds that 95% of the best players all roll 2h/pa, that alone shows that they need balancing.

[YetiFiasco]

edit: that arn't on horseback.

[Patricia]

Good players roll 2h/polearms because shielder is fucking boring and if you're good at manual blocking why would you bother crutching on a big ass slow shield.

Also, a couple of shield would like to talk with you.

The brown heater shield has 96 speed rating and it's extremely durable, the knightly heater shields have EXTREME speed and are durable enough to last a round without a problem, as long as you have a decent shield skill.

Just another case of a noob who doesn't know how to play and yet feel the need to say his opinion about everything being OP except himself.

Move along, nothing to see.

[Gorath]

HAHAHAHAHA

1)  1h/shield combo is fine and perfectly capable of avoiding being spammed to death by 2h/pole.  That is a case of PEBKAC, so get better
2)  There are 95-100 speed shields that last for incredibly long times in combat - IF you put the damn thing away vs a bonus vs shields weapon (axes, morningstar, etc).  L2Manual block and don't be afraid of 1h/no shield.
3)  Plenty of us use 1h/shield because we like the style and do exceedingly well with it.  ManOfWar, Huey, Dan (pre-2her gen), Cyranule (Pre-2her gen) for example.  Not to sound like I'm masturfapping, but I Myself tend to do notably well with 1h/shield I think, though you'd have to ask others that play with me often for an unbiased opinion.  (I have a 1h/2h hybrid and a 1h/polearm hoplite hybrid I swap between and both use their 1hers quite a bit)

Overall, this really is a case of PEBKAC and you needing to work on your melee more.

My point still holds that 95% of the best players all roll 2h/pa, that alone shows that they need balancing.

This is because they're the BEST PLAYERS and 2h/polearm is usually more challenging/fun (which are usually one in the same for the better players).  Some of those better players also roll around with crap weapons like 1h practice swords, long daggers, pitchforks and such just for the luls and STILL top the boards.

[Inkompetent]

For balancing is exactly why I'm saying weapon proficiency should matter less for weapon speed. It'd make two-handers a tad slower (still would require a fast shield to outmatch them though, so don't take the strongest and biggest shield since it's not obviously best). 'Spamming' shields with 2h weapons was a very viable tactic IRL. Seems reasonable it is here too.

I would also argue that unbalanced 2h weapons (especially Spiked Mace comes to mind, with its 99 speed) would need to be slowed down. It feels pretty silly when I see people with 2h maces attack with them like they were made of paper, since they are so front-heavy they'd be anything but quick, and already have the advantage of knockdown.

Things are fairly well balanced, but speed-stacking just feels too powerful in general (speaking as one who is already doing it).


As for 1h+shield being bad though? You should see kinngrim on EU servers. Runs around with Huscarl's shield and a Steel Pick, and usually has 10:1 or so in K/D ratio. And he's just a prime example, but there are many more doing the same huscarl-thing and being very hard to defeat for two-handers, even with their swift greatswords.