Why oh why are 2h and pole arms still OP?

[Gortha]

As far as i see the whole s/s (sword[or1h]/shield) vs 2h(or poleaxe[im excluding spears and pikes cause i think they are no problem to beat 1on1]) discussions i would say theres a good ammount of arguments for both sides that are true. however i still find 2h OP and ill gladly explain why.

whenever a s/s user QQs about helicopters, the 2h community goes like: lol a decent player can sneak hits in pretty well and outsmart the helicopter with ease!
- theres the first mistake in my opinion. you compare a (in your opinion) bad s/s to a bad 2h and tell him a good s/s would win against a bad 2h. but what about a decent helicopter? ive had fights where good 2h players could hit behind my shield pretty well by countless retard-movements.
it is mentioned to outmaneuver the 2hander to win, while if he is good he will easily take advantage of superior speed and weapon range until your shield breaks, or try to helicopter behind your shield with hiltthrust- attack types.
i would NOT say a helicopter is better than an s/s player by spamming alone, but its about possible attack-moves! while the only viable attacks for a 1handed weapon are the basic 4 attack types and feinting, the 2handed has much more to offer.
with a 2hander you can hiltthrust with left and right swings (exploit thats being treated as a feature), 5k mousespeed helicopter (tried that on s/s and i didnt work because my character turnes too slow for some reason[maybe cause of shield?], but even if he did its kinda useless with a 90* length weapon), helicopter-feint (unreadable), helicopter-thrust (exploit treated as a feature [also useless with 90* length 1handed]) and i also found it easier to chamber with 2h +you have the 4 normal attack types.
(*) im using the 90 length as a basic range for 1h because most 1handed are around 90 and counting only 100 length weapons would mean the others are useless.

-the probably worst argument is the "shield is immune to ranged!" one. 2h players can grab shields or crossbows or throwing weapons or bows too ... plus evading arrows is not really that hard with a speedy character, while my shield is already half broken in the time i need to approach.

-point is that 2h players seem to think it is fair that they own in duels because it is hard to play with manual blocking. while i agree with the thought behind this argument, i totally disagree on the argument itself.
a 1h with no shield should rock in duels cause youre not being hindered in your speed/movement like you would be with a shield. you also could switch to 2h swing with your 1h to do decent damage if you see the opporunity for a good strike or use your left hand for punching, shoving, grabbing, dual wield etc.
but a 2handed weapon should by no means be good in duels, its totally unrealistic that a 2h can win vs a shielder and anybody that ever fought in a steel-weapon skirmish in reality would agree on that. you simply move point blank and he cant do shit, shove him with your shield and stab him to death. 2handers ARE support weapons and not duel weapons.
we need a dual wield possibility in this game....
1h/dual wield should be better vs shield, shield should be better vs 2h and 2h should be better vs 1h/dual wield (cause you cant parry a 2h with a 1h) that would be realistic and fair if you ask me. atm its only about which team has the most high-gear/high-level/high-helicopter 2h's and that team usually wins.

all in all i think the balance is not too bad, but when it comes to skilled player battles or pro gaming 2h is simply OP because it has much more possibilities to offer with nearly no drawback at all (for a skilled player). + skill system on crpg is unbalanced cause 2h max-agi builds are too fast and still have good damage while you would hardly go through any armor with a 1h max-agi build.

just my 5 cent

please DONT reply before you read the whole post, spare me your nonsense

Yeah, very much i think about this whole thing too.
A simple shieldbash or shieldpush and the 2handed-weapon wielding opponent would be beaten.

You can see it at some positions of these 3 Videos, where the "Viking" is just running against
the 2handed-wielder and does hidden stanbs and slashes out of his shield.
Not a little chance for a 2handed-guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpu2NRg-HEg

[Corrado_Decimo]

Yeah, very much i think about this whole thing too.
A simple shieldbash or shieldpush and the 2handed-weapon wielding opponent would be beaten.

You can see it at some positions of these 3 Videos, where the "Viking" is just running against
the 2handed-wielder and does hidden stanbs and slashes out of his shield.
Not a little chance for a 2handed-guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpu2NRg-HEg

their real fighting skill matches the skill of the average player on first day of M&B warband (translated: noob). i think isn't really a good comparison.

BUT if you want to check modern longsword skill, you should check here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4_2EFIpA24

[Vance]

lol those guys can't even stand up reliably...

The main reason why fighting without a shield became popular was because it was a pain to carry shield.

And I think it is more about popularity than effectiveness, hence sexy swords of penis extension rather than maces and axes.

[Mala]

ok lets put it simple.

1h/shield: ... good in close quarters

In theory yes, but ingame you got stuck in nearly everthing while the "bad" competitors can swing quite often through solid objects (teammates, walls etc.)

2handed: ...good in close quarters.

Huh?

clearly, things are not how they should be. 1h/shield pays almost-immunity to ranged and clusterfucks ...

It is no almost-immunity, but more a partly-immunity.

[Spa_geh_tea]

The problem is in the fact that one handlers are so much shorter that you would think their sweet spot would be facehugging the enemy. However you'll find your weapon bounces, hardcored in the game. Poles and 2h are able to cheat this by spinning and swinging at the ground. 1h can reform this cheat as well, however I still find their weapons bounce more often when pulling this maneuver resulting in death, or the pol or 2h have longer reach so they hit your feet first. Recommendation is to adjust poles and 2h sweet spots to not be the whole blade so they too will bounce like 1h when not in optimal range.

Fix the miadao it does nearly full damage swings at any range.....

[[ptx]]

Problems with my ISP leave me stuck playing on ru_crpg. I dare you to go there and do good with a 2h or polearm vs their shielders.

The problem is in the fact that one handlers are so much shorter that you would think their sweet spot would be facehugging the enemy. However you'll find your weapon bounces, hardcored in the game. Poles and 2h are able to cheat this by spinning and swinging at the ground. 1h can reform this cheat as well, however I still find their weapons bounce more often when pulling this maneuver resulting in death, or the pol or 2h have longer reach so they hit your feet first. Recommendation is to adjust poles and 2h sweet spots to not be the whole blade so they too will bounce like 1h when not in optimal range.

Fix the miadao it does nearly full damage swings at any range.....

Le wut? 1h sweetspot is the max range of their swings. (which actually have a very decent range, a competent 1h user with a 100 range sword can outrange any 2h shorter than 110 range (except for 2h stabs) or polearms shorter than 120.)

[Vance]

Poles and 2h are able to cheat this by spinning and swinging at the ground.

Those 2h/polearm swings that wind up coming out of the floor are one of the most annoying things this shielder gets hit by. And the guy is rediculously bent over which makes a headshot very hard. I wish it would just bounce off the floor for them.

[Spa_geh_tea]

Like I was trying to state, pol and 2h swinging at the same range as a 1h sweet spot are too close in amount of damage and wiffing. This sort of thing should be ratios instead of hardcore lengths. So, let say 2/3 of a blade is effective with damage loss as get closer to the hilt. This way at closer distances, 2h and pol will do much less or no damage compared to 1h.

[Xant]

Problems with my ISP leave me stuck playing on ru_crpg. I dare you to go there and do good with a 2h or polearm vs their shielders.

Le wut? 1h sweetspot is the max range of their swings. (which actually have a very decent range, a competent 1h user with a 100 range sword can outrange any 2h shorter than 110 range (except for 2h stabs) or polearms shorter than 120.)

Briefly, I had a 1handnoshield alt with Elite scimitar. 90% of the time I hit before the 2handers/polearmers hit me. Now, that's obviously because my sense of timing and range is superior compared to the unwashed masses, but it still shows that the difference is not that big in range. The only reason Elite Scimitar isn't by far better than 2h swords is because it usually took 4-5 swings to kill someone with 7 Ps. Now, add to that a shield and well, you certainly are not disadvantaged against 2h/polearm.

To clarify, I am most certainly not refuting what Ptx is saying, but agreeing with our kind lord quoted above.

[Spa_geh_tea]

Like I was trying to state, pol and 2h swinging at the same range as a 1h sweet spot are too close in amount of damage and wiffing. This sort of thing should be ratios instead of hardcore lengths. So, let say 2/3 of a blade is effective with damage loss as get closer to the hilt. This way at closer distances, 2h and pol will do much less or no damage compared to 1h.

Quoting myself cause this would be a great solution. So pol and 2h are actually at a disadvantage when face hugging.

[[ptx]]

A bit of footwork will put them there.

Oh, wait, that would actually require people to know how to do something...

@Xant - 4-5 swings with 7 PS? No way. Far less, i'd say. Except for heavily armored strength stackers.

[rustyspoon]

@Xant - 4-5 swings with 7 PS? No way. Far less, i'd say. Except for heavily armored strength stackers.

Heavily armored strength stackers is a huge chunk of the NA community.

However, I personally feel that 1-handers are in a great spot right now. Way better than they have ever been. The lowered chance of glancing was a HUGE buff to 1-handers.

[DrKronic]

if u guys can't win at facehugging with 1h weapons you haven't learned how to properly left/overhead spam, all the good guys can, and u got omniblock quit your crying

I have a 1her myself I raised to 30, str builds on 2h really work on siege not on battle due to ranged/foot speed being more important(not counting fully heirloomed guys like goretooth/tydeus/spookisland/ok myself nearly)

thing is people look at a Darth_Kronic/SpookIsland/Goretooth/etc and don't realize your fighting guys that's played this years longer than you have and thousands of hours more, in fully magic armors with fully buffed weapons with the hottest builds in the land

its more than just "omg his weapon class was better than mine"

then you have 1handers like Cyranule/Manowar/Balbaroth/Hippi_with_a_scimi and you see if you have lots of heirlooms (like say a MW scimitar and Masterpiece Shield like hippi) you too can  have a 5 to 1 KDR

its more "balanced' than ever, balanced in favor of 1h actually, scrubs though will never learn, even armor now is tailored to suit how your weapons hit(more staggers, no glances)

[Corrado_Decimo]

In theory yes, but ingame you got stuck in nearly everthing while the "bad" competitors can swing quite often through solid objects (teammates, walls etc.)
Huh?
It is no almost-immunity, but more a partly-immunity.

i stated 1h/shield best in close quarters, 2h good in close quarters. with polearms no that good in close quarters because of the facehugging glance with longer polearms. 2hers do good in close with 2h hammers, morningstars and axes for instance.

partly immunity if you use a 10x10 dinner dish buckler yes. almost immunity if you use a heavy norman or huscarl.

[Mala]

A 2hand weapon is quite lone, and now try to imagine to use it in a narrow hallway or between your teammates.
Does it still look like a good option for close quarter combat?

The current size is 2x2 (thanks to the archer whine) and a have a collection of shields and sometimes i use the bigger ones.
And guess what, i still get hit.
But maybe that is just a translation thing. Almost means for me nearly 100% and not around 50%.