Revamp shield skill idea

[Konrax]

Take the current version of shield skill and throw it out the window.

First off, shield skill will no longer make shields tougher or last longer. (Will require some shield item rebalance.) The idea behind this concept is that a shield is really equally tough no matter what your "skill" level is with it.

Shield weight is the listed or "effective" amount at the base level of shield skill required to use the shield.

Each point of shield skill in addition will reduce the effective weight of a shield by 20% for movement purposes only. This would require that you have 5 points of shield above in order to have effectively a 0 weight shield. Anything above that amount would have no additional benefit.

Each point of shield also effects the "speed" of the shield similar to how it is currently, perhaps even with a small buff.


Why do all this?

This way all shields across the board will take less damage overall to destroy them. Non-shield users will all appreciate this change, since it will make turtles and bad players less viable.

Strength heavy shielders will be relatively unchanged.

Agility shielders will then be able to move at a similar speed as 2h and polearm users.

This will make agility shielders more of a speedy range killing class rather than a squishy low damage spam turtle.

Actually makes steel shield look appealing and viable.


Thoughts?

[Ulter]

I think this would make shields just not worth taking, as they would get destroyed after a short encounter with an enemy. That way shields would be almost useless in meele, as the only advantage of a shielder - the shield - in which he invested money and skillpoints would just disappear very quickly.
If you buff all shields stats however, this could put str shielders on an advantage.

[Nightmare798]

Take the current version of shield skill and throw it out the window.

First off, shield skill will no longer make shields tougher or last longer. (Will require some shield item rebalance.) The idea behind this concept is that a shield is really equally tough no matter what your "skill" level is with it.

Shield weight is the listed or "effective" amount at the base level of shield skill required to use the shield.

Each point of shield skill in addition will reduce the effective weight of a shield by 20% for movement purposes only. This would require that you have 5 points of shield above in order to have effectively a 0 weight shield. Anything above that amount would have no additional benefit.

Each point of shield also effects the "speed" of the shield similar to how it is currently, perhaps even with a small buff.


Why do all this?

This way all shields across the board will take less damage overall to destroy them. Non-shield users will all appreciate this change, since it will make turtles and bad players less viable.

Strength heavy shielders will be relatively unchanged.

Agility shielders will then be able to move at a similar speed as 2h and polearm users.

This will make agility shielders more of a speedy range killing class rather than a squishy low damage spam turtle.

Actually makes steel shield look appealing and viable.


Thoughts?

seems stupid to me, yes i am shielder, and my shield gets already destroyed in 3-4 hits from morning star. imagine making them even weaker.
plus this game already full of scrubs wielding big 2h axes with absolutely no penalties.

[Paul]

2h axemen are rather rare and the least op 2h branch.

[San]

Shields will break much faster without the 40-60% damage reduction, but I understand what you're getting at.

[Konrax]

That's why I said there would need to be some adjustments to shields.

I would give them an overall hp buff of roughly 25-35%.

[Jarold]

The shield skill requirement will still be in right?

[Phew]

I agree that the shield skill is very crappy right now and not worth taking past the skill requirement for the shield you'd like to use. I've been advocating shield skill reducing the effective weight of shields for years, and I very much agree with that aspect. I think it should be a 1kg/skill point reduction though, and not a percentage. That way it would take a lot of skill to negate the weight of a Steel Shield.

I also agree that durability shouldn't be tied as strongly to the skill, but I'm not sure I agree with your proposed approach. I've seen the idea before whereby shielders would be rewarded for "directional" blocking. i.e. blocking in the correct direction significantly reduces the damage to the shield, and possibly even induces a slight stun to the attacker. But blocking in the wrong direction causes more damage to the shield and a slight stun to the blocker.

The shield bash is a nice mechanic, but I'd like to see the knockback distance be a function of shield skill instead of strength.

Overall, I just want the devs to make shield skill mean something. Right now, all it really does is make it so the shield survives 30 hits from a longsword instead of 20; either way, it's not breaking. But even with 7+ shield skill, an axe will still break the shield in 3-4 swings, so there isn't much point to investing in shield skill.

[Konrax]

Shield skill requirement would still be in place.

To clarify, the shield skill level required for the shield has the exact effective stats as the shield displayed.

So a 4req shield that you see will have those exact stats at 4 shield.

Going above then provides a bonus.

Phew you make a good point, it could be a solid number per shield point above.

However I believe 1 point is too low, perhaps 1.5 per would make more sense.

Keep in mind also that shield stats would need to be readjusted (weight included).

[Tydeus]

Shields will break much faster without the 40-60% damage reduction, but I understand what you're getting at.

Here are the current problems with shields and shield skill as I see it:
1) There's basically no reason for players, specifically 1hers to get 1-3 points in shield skill.
2) Shield skill at 7-11 points is mostly never done.
3) Shield force field leaves a lot to be desired.
4) Current shield's speed stat leaves most shield slow to block
5) Current levels of shield weight and thus the movement impediment that follows because this, is too great.
6) All players should be able to pick up any shield but at the cost of massively reduced effectiveness, and possibly movement penalties when wielding the shield.
7) The Damage Reduction formula is absurd.

What I'd like to see is something along the lines of the following formula for DR.

Code: [Select]

(8*shield skill)*(1-(.025*shield skill))+20

Shields with higher amounts of resistance would need toned down slightly and shield hp cut by about 10% across the board, but mostly everything should be fine as is I think. It doesn't do everything that I want to do with shields, personally, but it would put shield skill closer to where it needs to be when considering per point effectiveness. Next, I think most lower shield skill requirement shields should get a massive buff that comes at the cost of increased weight(meaning you'd still have lighter alternatives). This will allow players to choose to have 1-3 points in shield skill, for mediocre effectiveness(as opposed to what is now very little) while at the same time, increasing the effectiveness that medium to medium high levels of shield skill receive.

Again, this isn't everything I'd like to see, but having the DR formula at a stable spot that makes sense, will set the stage for future changes.

Edit: This whole thread of course assumes no benefits from directional blocking with a shield are implemented.

[Phew]

Here are the current problems with shields and shield skill as I see it:
1) There's basically no reason for players, specifically 1hers to get 1-3 points in shield skill.
2) Shield skill at 7-11 points is mostly never done.
3) Shield force field leaves a lot to be desired.
4) Current shield's speed stat leaves most shield slow to block
5) Current levels of shield weight and thus the movement impediment that follows because this, is too great.
6) All players should be able to pick up any shield but at the cost of massively reduced effectiveness, and possibly movement penalties when wielding the shield.
7) The Damage Reduction formula is absurd.

What I'd like to see is something along the lines of the following formula for DR.

Code: [Select]

(8*shield skill)*(1-(.025*shield skill))+20

Shields with higher amounts of resistance would need toned down slightly and shield hp cut by about 10% across the board, but mostly everything should be fine as is I think. It doesn't do everything that I want to do with shields, personally, but it would put shield skill closer to where it needs to be when considering per point effectiveness. Next, I think most lower shield skill requirement shields should get a massive buff that comes at the cost of increased weight(meaning you'd still have lighter alternatives). This will allow players to choose to have 1-3 points in shield skill, for mediocre effectiveness(as opposed to what is now very little) while at the same time, increasing the effectiveness that medium to medium high levels of shield skill receive.

Again, this isn't everything I'd like to see, but having the DR formula at a stable spot that makes sense, will set the stage for future changes.

Edit: This whole thread of course assumes no benefits from directional blocking with a shield are implemented.

+1 to all this. Shields were a battlefield staple for millennia before the invention of gunpowder, so there should be more incentive for "non-dedicated" shielders to use one. Would also cut down on the whining about ranged if more shields were used. And there should be more reward for heavy investment in shield skill than being able to absorb one more axe hit.

[Turboflex]

Shields are fine leave them alone.

The problem of AGI shielders is not that they are too slow, but that everyone else has loomed around at least around 55-65+ and lots of str/if, so you need a steel pick or warhammer to even scratch people (and it still takes 5 hits).

[Tydeus]

You're right, having an impenetrable, 105 gold shield is a great mechanic to have. It completely falls in line with all the other crpg themes. 13 shield skill builds might not be effective, but that doesn't mean we should settle for mediocrity.

[Vodner]

Shields are fine leave them alone.

The problem of AGI shielders is not that they are too slow, but that everyone else has loomed around at least around 55-65+ and lots of str/if, so you need a steel pick or warhammer to even scratch people (and it still takes 5 hits).

+3 milcleaver works pretty well with 5 PS. Wouldn't want to try a lower cut weapon with it, though. My only issue with 15/21 is that the combined weight of decent armor (for frontlining) and a shield eliminates a lot of the benefit of 7 ath.

[Turboflex]

You're right, having an impenetrable, 105 gold shield is a great mechanic to have. It completely falls in line with all the other crpg themes. 13 shield skill builds might not be effective, but that doesn't mean we should settle for mediocrity.

Easy solution: Just put in a hard cap of 5 or 6 shield skill. I would personally say 5.