Poll

Should having more troops allow you to recruit more of the 102 players?

Yes - depending on size, allow the bigger army to recruit up to 25 more players.
Yes - but allow recruiting more than 25 players.
Yes - but allow recruiting less than 25 players.
No - keep it the way it is.

Author Topic: How to make troop difference have the impact it should  (Read 661 times)

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Offline Zeniues

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How to make troop difference have the impact it should
« on: July 08, 2013, 09:11:17 pm »
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Look at the state of it

Currently in Strategus battles, an army of 2000 versus an army of 500 will still be presented by 51 players vs 51 players.

This creates a problem, because a smaller army is able to kill much more of a much greater army than they should be able to realistically, because they have the same amount of troops present on the field of battle as the greater army. This causes the greater army to endure losses it simply should not, unless it was really, really bad.

A larger army can afford to be more experimental. It can create groups meant for flanking, stealing the flag, diversion, you name it. Having the superior number of troops allow you to fight in a different way than you would if you had an equal amount, or if you were outnumbered.

A smaller army has to be more tactical, has to bottleneck the enemy, play smart, fight for every inch of ground. They also have the huge disadvantage of being outnumbered, this SHOULD give them a tactical disadvantage.

Currently in the 51 vs. 51 mode, if a smaller army of 250 is against an army of 500, if the smaller army had some extremely skilled duelist, they could win, or make a really big dent in the larger army of 500. While this is not necessarily all that bad, and while skill should of course play a role in CRPG, we have to remember that simply outnumbering an opponent is more importan than skill. If 10 pikemen surround Deserter_Mighty_Shaman, despite his skills, he will be killed relatively easy, probably without any casualties. The game should reflect this. In war tactics are more important than skills.

Give me the numbers

When I first wrote this post I was saying that the army with the higher percentage of troops should have the number of players that their troop superiority reflected e.g. If an army of 1000 was facing an army of 500, the army of thousand would own 75% of the total troops, and as such they should be allowed to recruit 75% of the players, which would amount to 76~ players. If the greater army had 90% of the troops they would be able to recruit 91~ of the 102 players.

At first I thought that was a good idea but I realized that it might not be very fun when you're outnumbered so badly that you are down to 10 players on your team. So being enlightened by the people in this thread, I thought about it and my conclusion was that the optimal number would be that up to 25 players was up for grabs for the army with the superior number of troops. How many of the 25 the bigger army would be able to recruit, would be determined by how much more troops their army has compared to the lesser army.

The closer two armies are in troops, the closer the amount of players they can recruit would be. Two armies of truly equal troop sizes would still be 51 vs. 51.

This would mean that a vastly superior army would have 76~ players while the inferior army would have ~26 players. This would create a battle where the troop size is reflected, and give the realistic and immersive advantages and disadvantages, whilst still allowing the smaller army to have a good base of 26 players, enabling it to still play tactically, and still have a chance to win if they were extremely good tactically and very skilled as well.

Why? Because it's fun

The most imporant point, and why I came to thinking about this in the first place, is that it would quite simply be much more fun this way. The commanders would have to adjust their tactics to how many troops they had, this would result in battles with much more variety than we see today.

The forces would certainly feel the immersive difference; a superior number of troops would make the army feel as if they were swarming over the enemy like locusts, while a smaller army would really feel like they had to play extremely skillfully and tactically, and fight for every inch of ground. It would immerse us much more in the battles, and we would truly feel the difference of facing a greater or lesser army.

It would also lend a whole lot more fun to sieges, who are currently very unfair to the attackers. Sieges are places where having a greater amount of troops present is a necessity, you need to attack several directions at once if you want to get in; tactics are quintessential to victory.

Overall I suggest this change because it would be realistic, it would be heaps of fun, and it would bring much greater variety in the battles we see everyday, and most importantly, it would allow tactics to have a much greater importance and depth, and allow commanders to truly shine like they did on the battlefields of old.

- Rewrote the original post as some people here changed my opinion and to make it easier on the eyes.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 01:49:27 pm by Zeniues »

Offline Necrorave

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Re: How to make troop difference have the impact it should
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2013, 09:32:01 pm »
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I understand your point of view, although I feel for Crpg that would be too much of a problem.

I think if you have a smaller army then your spawn rate should be slower than the other army.  That way the smaller army will try their best to keep each other alive.  I feel it would be more situated that way.

 I feel numbers make a bigger difference in the game then they do in real life mostly due to the fact that strategy relies on what the mod allows you to do.  (Obviously this is speculation)

Although, I personally do not see a problem with the way it is handled now.

Offline Vermilion

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Re: How to make troop difference have the impact it should
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2013, 11:35:04 pm »
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Add a poll so people can vote agree or disagree... I don't want to down vote you but I don't agree with your suggestion.

Whilst it would make it more realistic... It's a game and I feel it would ruin the battles. It would but people off signing up for the smaller side, make rage quitting more common and with spawn killing and flag capturing being within the rules it would create an 'unsporting' advantage.

With the current set-up if one side is larger than the other they focus on running their tick count to 0 rather than taking the flags.

I vote keep it 51 Vs 51

Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: How to make troop difference have the impact it should
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 07:01:43 pm »
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It used to be the way you suggest, and I actually think that should be the way it is as well.  It should be very minimal (with a max of like 10-15% more in game players on one side).

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Offline Konrax

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Re: How to make troop difference have the impact it should
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2013, 05:14:40 pm »
+1
I like this idea, but instead of a 15% swing like OP suggests I think something between 20% - 30% would be ideal.

Troop Count = [ [ [ Side A / (Side A + Side B) ] * 0.3 ] + 0.4 ] * 102

Offline Kafein

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Re: How to make troop difference have the impact it should
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 10:38:51 pm »
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Tactics should have a greater impact, they're the most interesting part of battle

Please explain how is this an acceptable claim

Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: How to make troop difference have the impact it should
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 11:00:16 pm »
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1. Somehow gather 100k troops.
2. Steamroll and flag cap every place that doesn't have 50k or more troops.
3. Profit.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Zeniues

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Re: How to make troop difference have the impact it should
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2013, 12:03:11 pm »
+1
@CrazyCracka: I'd prefer it to be all the way, but anything is better than the current state. Troop size should have an impact.

@Kafein: Tactics is what makes every battle different. Variety is the spice of life. A large army fights differently than a small army.

@Zlisch: That's how it works in real life as well, but obviously huge upkeeps and such should keep it from becoming that extreme.

But all in all, troop size advantage makes a huge difference, and it should make a huge difference. Currently if you have much more troops than the other side, you will mostly still win, but you will suffer way more losses than you should, and you will have way less tactical advantage and flexibility compared to what you should have against an enemy of significantly smaller size.

- Poll is up.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 12:21:08 pm by Zeniues »