Author Topic: How was real melee like?  (Read 14483 times)

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Offline Herezy92

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2014, 10:04:12 am »
+1
so I dont imagine that in the medieval age you were often asked to pepper your guys backs with arrows as part of classic tactical moves.

What you don't understand is, they of course don't do it intentionally.

Melee fight was a complete mess.
Before they use banners, the infantry has to yell as loud as possible his allegiance in order to know who he must attack.
See how chaotic it was...

Moreover, during the Medieval Age the armies were mainly composed by peasants without any discipline.

What i'm trying to say is : Of course they didn't volontary fire volleys on friendly soldiers like ww1 arty did, but they still have made a lot of friendly kill.

Butan, i'm pretty sure that for you all battles were like this :
Archers fires at start, and then, they let the melee engage.
Yes some battles were like this, but definetly not all.

Offline Butan

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2014, 05:25:00 pm »
0
What you don't understand is, they of course don't do it intentionally.

Melee fight was a complete mess.
Before they use banners, the infantry has to yell as loud as possible his allegiance in order to know who he must attack.
See how chaotic it was...

Moreover, during the Medieval Age the armies were mainly composed by peasants without any discipline.

What i'm trying to say is : Of course they didn't volontary fire volleys on friendly soldiers like ww1 arty did, but they still have made a lot of friendly kill.

Butan, i'm pretty sure that for you all battles were like this :
Archers fires at start, and then, they let the melee engage.
Yes some battles were like this, but definetly not all.


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I dont disagree with you, I think we both agree that :

- in a orderly battle, phases were respected, and the main source of friendly casualties were made by melee weapons in the heat of the fight
- in a chaotic battle, phases were less respected or not at all, and there was much more space for friendly fire, including projectiles

Offline Herezy92

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2014, 07:26:19 pm »
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So here we have an agreement ! :)
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Offline Prinz_Karl

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2014, 10:08:47 pm »
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We like to impose our own modern concept of war and 'armies' on historic soldiers, but even the Romans had no concept of 'Uniform' in their armies, the depictions of roman soldiers all with red tunics and identical armour is one of the greatest myths of history, there is zero evidence to support it and plenty that contradicts it. We like to imagine it because we like to hear how like us the Romans were, we like to think of them as a military 'machine' and resembling a modern army so we extrapolate our values backwards into the past.

I don't understand what you mean. Of course there weren't just legionaries in the army? A legion had about the same amount auxiliary troops as it had legionaries.

But I think you're talking about the legionaries only. " ...there is zero evidence to support it and plenty that contradicts it", really? Did you make a research on that and if you did would you give me the source of it? From what I've read it's just the opposite as a result of early mass production and standardization.

Offline Prinz_Karl

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2014, 11:39:37 pm »
+1
In german wikipedia it says that the equipment was highly standardized. Of course by the time of roman legions there wasn't any mentioning of uniform yet, but the equipment was already distinctive I guess and a prototype of uniform.

Anyway I would say that there was no mass production of very equal armors but I think the overall style of the armors was observed, which made them look very similar, but I don't know much about that.

Offline Herezy92

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2014, 10:36:02 am »
+2
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Same goes for the gallic tribes in Gaul.
All frenchies believe that it was like this :
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However, very recently (something like 20 years ago) we started to discover many artifacts showing that the Gallic culture was extremely much more deep than what the expert were expecting.
With a developped architecture (and not savage houses).
Excellent black-smith. (not only the weapons, but also various things like money and tools)
So they were kinda a mixt between greek influence / strong latin influence nordic gallic influence.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2014, 10:46:25 am »
+1
That fucking Lorica Segmentata. Regular mail was much more common for a much longer period of time, just easier to produce and maintain. From what I remember reading the segmented steel plates armor was developped specifically to counter the falx, some thracian weapon that regularly dismembered legionnaries at the shoulder, but i'm pretty sure that was from Europa Barbarorum, no idea how accurate that is.

And yeah celtic culture was almost entirely subsumed into roman one, but traces of it mostly showed up in the army. Romans more or less fought in the exact same manner as greek cities in their earlier years, citizens as hoplites and the nobility as cavalry. Only after campaigns against the samnians and later celtic tribes in the Po valley and on the iberian peninsula did they addopt the standard "legionnary" equip: Montefortino helmet, mail armor, gladius hispanensis, much larger shields with a boss in the center and javelins, all inspired by celtic analogues (although the pilum's deformation after impact, supposed to make a shield useless, was a uniquely roman addition afaik). Along with coins and other intricate metalwork, the presence of oppidae, towns, roads and extensive trade networks, it's clear the celts weren't as primitive and barbaric as roman sources painted them. Although at the time of roman expansion celts were present from the british isles all the way Anatolia, overarching generalizations don't work either way, when there could be massive demographic, geographic and cultural differences from one celtic tribe to another. Certain were know for their farmers, or traders, or mystics, or sailors, or warriors, etc.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 11:00:56 am by Oberyn »
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Offline Herezy92

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2014, 11:01:24 am »
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By the way, i just read again about what i was saying.

The famous Imperial Gallic helmet was made by the Gauls.
In addition to this, it is commonly thought that the Gauls also introduced chainmail to the Romans.

Even if the legionnaries recruited in Magna Italica received a complete package, we have to remember one thing as Heskey said :

"The exact form or design of the helmet varied significantly over time, between differing unit types, and also between individual examples - pre-industrial production was by hand – so it is not certain to what degree there was any standardization even under the Roman Empire."
The Imperial Gallic helmet :
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Offline Leesin

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #83 on: July 17, 2014, 03:16:56 pm »
+1
IMO Red was probably used through the Roman army early on, because of Mars the God of War, but I think it was also one of the easier dyes to make. Though it would be naive to say Red was the only colour used and that it was used throughout the entire Roman Empire for all the years that it thrived.

Offline Butan

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #84 on: July 17, 2014, 03:29:26 pm »
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Wouldnt reports depicting major battles where the Roman fought, give us details on what was the primary color the romans used for their legionnaires?

I think its a mix between HESKEY and Leesin: red must have been the "official" color (most flags were red), but it wasnt the only one authorized to be used, thus on specific situations it could have been different.
The principal for soldiers was to be able to differentiate their own with the enemies, if they couldnt all have the same armor tint, they used something else.

Offline Xant

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2014, 03:43:06 pm »
+1
When you're speculating this much, it's pointless to even discuss it. Speculation is only fruitful when you have a lot of background information on the matter so you can make educated guesses. Right now you guys are assuming a hundred different things to even get to the point where you start your guessing. But hey, whatever floats your goat, it just seems about as useful to ask a five-year old their opinion on it, it'd be as likely to be right or wrong.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline Butan

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2014, 03:59:40 pm »
0
Reading only that one post of yours Xant, I can already make an educated guess that you're not one tid bit helpful to anyone and by will, just excruciatingly exaggerating the difficulty of how we might end up with the truth of it, not adding one argument in favor of one or the other :lol:


I still think it's a leap to assume there was any 'official' or 'standard' colour without it being mentioned anywhere, so much detail is given in other areas it'd be striking if there was an official guideline that never gets mentioned.

Again I must ask, wasnt battles with romans depicted in historical reports, where we could read what the romans looked like?

Offline Xant

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #87 on: July 17, 2014, 04:04:48 pm »
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About which bit? The Roman 'uniform' or about melee in general?

And yes, lots and lots of speculation in these threads. That's why i think it's stating too much to assume any kind of general 'rule'.
The uniform, mostly, since melee is just physics and can actually be speculated on fairly accurately (even though the discussion in this thread is eye roll material) but there are so many factors in play when it comes to the uniforms that, unless we know, there's no point in talking about it. For example, Butan "thinks" red might have been the official color, but not the only authorized color. Not only is this assuming things about the military leadership and their stance on uniforms and uniformity (which isn't physics and thus can't be replicated today), it's assuming several things about the availability of different materials and their distribution and how it all worked in practice and if there were differences between units and eras and so on and so forth. Maybe there's enough literature on the Romans to make educated guesses on this, I don't know, but people in this thread certainly don't seem to be in possession of it. So you might just as well ask the next stranger you see what he "thinks" about it, which doesn't really help you at all if you want to know the truth.
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
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Offline Herezy92

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #88 on: July 17, 2014, 04:10:35 pm »
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You are welcome to let us live free in our mediocrity. :)

As far i know, since when can't we talk about "useless things" ?
Did you ever talk with a girl ? Erhm sorry.
Mostly all talks (if you have a "socialized" life) are "useless".

Offline Xant

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Re: How was real melee like?
« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2014, 04:19:42 pm »
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You are welcome to let us live free in our mediocrity. :)

As far i know, since when can't we talk about "useless things" ?
Did you ever talk with a girl ? Erhm sorry.
Mostly all talks (if you have a "socialized" life) are "useless".
Socialized = retarded? Why are you doing useless things and trying to disguise them as something positive?
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.