Problems with archery and ranged in general

[Shaksie]

Ranged in general, but more specifically archery needs quite a bit of work done to it.
Archery (among other factors that make it pretty underpowered) is far too expensive.
I'm using a Broad Short Sword, +3 Long Bow, +3 Bodkin Arrows, Head Wrapping, Tribal Warrior Outfit, Leather Gloves and Serbian Ankle boots.
This amounts to a total possible upkeep of 2043g.
My build is this:
Level 30
Strength: 18
Agility: 20
Power Strike: 6
Power Draw: 6
Athletics: 6
Weapon Master: 6
Archery: 150
One Handed: 50
(Fear not, I'm going to retire at 32 if I can afford it)

And I experience extreme upkeep every round.
I almost always have to repair my bow for 777g and very often my arrows for 354g and not quite as often my sword for 443g.

I'm approximately halfway through level 30 and I've lost nearly 150k this gen.
I've had entire gens of using top tier 2h, polearm and 1h/shield builds (usually with Sarranid guard armor equivalent armor) and this is the first gen I've had where I've not gained money.

I think it's fair to say that archery is extremely overpriced, both for game balanace and realism. A piece of wood however ornate, intricate and high quality wouldn't, intuitively, be as expensive as a sword.

Please, for the love of archery enjoyment, reduce the price and chance of upkeep; especially that of the bow and to a lesser degree, the arrows.

Other thoughts:
Archery is also quite underpowered.
Despite various melee heroes which are the core of the game and Q_Q the hardest; thus get the most changes passed, it is actually not very good whatsoever.
As shown by the text wall above, it is very expensive.
If a target moves around spastically, it is almost impossible to hit people with.
The reticule is enormous even with 150+ wpf and a +3 Longbow.
Unless you use a +3 Longbow and +3 Bodkins, it is also quite weak.
I've taken 5 hits to kill someone, however they were level ~34 and had perhaps 60 body armor.
I propose a change: make archery significantly more accurate, and perhaps all ranged weapons, but make the aim sway.
Have wpf reduce the effect of swaying, and instead of becoming less accurate, holding the arrow down for an extended period of time should cause the aim to sway more.
This would make archery more skill based, due to the element of luck (giant reticule) being eliminated and the ability for an archer to hit would be solely based on his skill, which would be assisted by his character's skills rather than the giant reticule limiting his ability to shoot stuff.
Similarly, it's pretty ridiculous how archery is the only ranged weapon type that has decreasing accuracy when you hold down an attack, makes it nearly impossible to beat throwers/xbowers in a ranged fight.

Apologies for resetting the poll results, I was mucking around with options and for some reason I can't make a poll where you can change your votes...

[HappyPhantom]

Agree, archery waaay too expensive. I live off money made on my alt. Which makes way more money, and compare the setups:

Archer:
2x bodkin arrows
1x yumi
1x fighting axe
1x padded jacket
1x leggings w knee hocks
1x leather gloves

Shielder:
1x Battle Fork
1x Niuweido
1x Rus armour
1x Open Sallet
1x leather boots
1x heavy round shield
1x leather gloves

My arrows way twice as much as a fricken Flamberge!!!

I'd like to see, PD changed so I can use top tier bows with 15str rather than 18 - then I can have more agi/flexibility in build.
Also reduced upkeep for archers.
I know everyone moans about kiting so realise weights is gonna stay the same :/

[Shaksie]

Agree, archery waaay too expensive. I live off money made on my alt. Which makes way more money, and compare the setups:

Archer:
2x bodkin arrows
1x yumi
1x fighting axe
1x padded jacket
1x leggings w knee hocks
1x leather gloves

Shielder:
1x Battle Fork
1x Niuweido
1x Rus armour
1x Open Sallet
1x leather boots
1x heavy round shield
1x leather gloves

My arrows way twice as much as a fricken Flamberge!!!
I know everyone moans about kiting so realise weights is gonna stay the same :/

Agreed, I think the arrow weight is ridiculous.
Kiting was very annoying indeed but if you really want to, you can drop your bow and run off, I don't think this was a reasonable solution at all, having to drop your bow to make you somewhat reasonable at melee was a terrible idea.

[Moncho]

You are using the most expensive equipment for your class and it is not cheap, what a surprise. Please compare it to a 2h in full plate with a flamberge, or a shielder with paramerion + steel shield, not someone with relatively cheap weapons (niuweidao and battle fork being almost peasant weapons costwise).

As a hybrid archer with horn bow + arrows + military hammer + heavy round shield and medium armor (white tunic over mail, mail mittens, kettle hat, leather boots), I break even without any problem with x1, with higher multis I tend to make money (total upkeep 1892). My build is almost like yours, 18/18 with 6 in WM, Athl, PS, PD and 5 shield, same wpf.
I have 150 wpf and good aim, if you want better aim, do not use a long bow, that one is for heavy hitting and requires higher wpf to be effective. You cannot have the best damage (+pierce from bodkins) and the best accuracy.

The arrow weight might not be the best thing, but I feel no real difference, yet again I almost always play with a shield, that have always been very heavy.

[Ulter]

You are using the most expensive equipment for your class and it is not cheap, what a surprise. Please compare it to a 2h in full plate with a flamberge, or a shielder with paramerion + steel shield, not someone with relatively cheap weapons (niuweidao and battle fork being almost peasant weapons costwise).

   Recently I played on my polearm alt with equipment as follows : bec de corbin, hounskull bascinet, churburg cuirass, glided hourglass gauntlets, cased greaves - in total 54703 gold worth of gear.
   
 While playing with that character I was making about about the same, if not a little bit more money than with my archer alt - Long bow, 2x bodkin arrows, short arming sword, chapel de fer with coif, heavy aketon, blue and purple hose - 17803 worth of gear.
Not to mention, how much easier it is to get valour with a meele class.

 As an effect, I had to struggle through the generation, using barbed arrows, hunting peasants, being of little use to the team as I could not deal any considerable damage to anybody with armour. Finally I retired and decided to not play as an archer again until they are rebalenced to a reasonable level.

Therefore I suggest to reduce price of bodkin arrows, or increse damage on the other types
I believe that bow prices are quite reasonable at the moment - for balance purposes

[Algarn]

Yeah please ... reduce upkeeps of archery : historically , archery was the cheapest thing after javelins for skirmishers ... that's a nonsense to pay so much ...

[Shaksie]

You are using the most expensive equipment for your class and it is not cheap, what a surprise. Please compare it to a 2h in full plate with a flamberge, or a shielder with paramerion + steel shield, not someone with relatively cheap weapons (niuweidao and battle fork being almost peasant weapons costwise).

As a hybrid archer with horn bow + arrows + military hammer + heavy round shield and medium armor (white tunic over mail, mail mittens, kettle hat, leather boots), I break even without any problem with x1, with higher multis I tend to make money (total upkeep 1892). My build is almost like yours, 18/18 with 6 in WM, Athl, PS, PD and 5 shield, same wpf.
I have 150 wpf and good aim, if you want better aim, do not use a long bow, that one is for heavy hitting and requires higher wpf to be effective. You cannot have the best damage (+pierce from bodkins) and the best accuracy.

The arrow weight might not be the best thing, but I feel no real difference, yet again I almost always play with a shield, that have always been very heavy.

I've lost 150k this gen from archery...

Flamberge + full plate armor and Paramerion + Steel shield are a playstyle choice whereas, in my opinion, the Longbow is by far the best ranged weapon.
I found that Broad Short Sword, Long Axe, Longsword, Knightly Heater Shield and Heraldic Mail with Tunic are the best items; regardless of their price and "tier".
I don't think it's very fair to give (again, my opinion) by far the best item the heftiest price tag and make others fairly weak. I have 18 strength and 0 ironflesh and it takes a Horn Bow + Bodkin arrows, (unsure of the power draw but I believe it was 6) from approximately 20m, 3 shots to kill me. This is quite ridiculous as I would most likely take 1.
Given that the Longbow has significantly flatter trajectory, higher missile speeds and has a fairly significantly better accuracy rating, I would say that it is easier to hit people with the Longbow than any other bow (I spent almost a gen deciding which [unloomed] bow to use), the only drawback, obviously, is the speed and huge pricetag.
It is a different story for top tier melee weapons, generally they are significantly harder to hit people with, don't do THAT much more damage (take longsword vs flamberge, long axe vs the poleaxes) and the generally increased weapon length makes them less useful for dueling. Thus I believe it is fairly obvious that it is a playstyle choice in the melee weapon you choose, whereas with Longbow it is fairly obvious. Similarly, seems kinda obvious to me that if you want maximum damage and slow fire rate, you should get the best accuracy.

Actually this takes me to a new point:
Add more bows.
I think it should be the choice of the archer if they want a high speed or high damage (and perhaps accuracy) bow, similarly to the choice provided to melee users; you can use a giant chopper or a speedy chopper if you want; the price shouldn't be almost solely dictated by 1 factor.

Also arrow weight has a huge penalty to mobility.

Yeah please ... reduce upkeeps of archery : historically , archery was the cheapest thing after javelins for skirmishers ... that's a nonsense to pay so much ...

Agreed, sounds pretty silly to me that a stick or stick with a pointy bit on the end is of comparable or in some cases higher price than a sword.

[Ronin]

The Upkeep should be decreased, not only for game balance but also for the reason that many new players start as archers in cRPG. It is just discouraging them to play the mod further on, when they hardly make gold.

As for the usefulness of archers, it highly depends on the game mode and team. Archers only become a balanced class when there is enough teamwork in their team.

[Gurnisson]

I only ever had problems with upkeep as horse archer, never as a foot archer. With Long Bow, 2x bodkin, pickaxe, leather jerkin/ragged outfit and leather gloves I made a lot of money. Still, a reduce in break chance on the bodkins wouldn't have hurt, I guess.

Also, buff non-loomed archery while keeping loomed the same. kthxbai

[Okkam]

since every pd still ruined your archery wpf for (last time it was 14 wpf for 1 pd) your real archery wpf is about 60-62. That's why you do not have accuracy and your chance for breaking is very high. I'm sure that Gurnisson has something like 6pd and 170 wpf in archery, and this is BIG difference, when we talk about archery.

also, I can recommend you to use barbed arrows (still good damage versus heavy armor targets, significantly more arrows) with your longbow and something cheaper as your 1h backup. You've got too many money leaks with your build.

and, to be honest, do not try to master this dying art. There still too many whiners with crazy ideas like "how to make live of stupid 2hander\polearmer more easy and comfortable". Even with arbalest\2 steel bolts quivers and your BSS you'll have far more fun.

[HappyPhantom]

You are using the most expensive equipment for your class and it is not cheap, what a surprise. Please compare it to a 2h in full plate with a flamberge, or a shielder with paramerion + steel shield, not someone with relatively cheap weapons (niuweidao and battle fork being almost peasant weapons costwise).

As a hybrid archer with horn bow + arrows + military hammer + heavy round shield and medium armor (white tunic over mail, mail mittens, kettle hat, leather boots), I break even without any problem with x1, with higher multis I tend to make money (total upkeep 1892). My build is almost like yours, 18/18 with 6 in WM, Athl, PS, PD and 5 shield, same wpf.

You are a hybrid build, not pure archer. There's a huge diff in upkeep between horn bows and a long bow, isn't there?

Which makes the point that to be a pure archer archer (note, not hybrid) you have to use the best tier weapons - and I'd argue a yumi isn't - I do that for upkeep- whereas to be an effective hybrid pole/1h I can get away with shittier gear.

[Utrakil]

I think as well the upkeep for archers is to high. YOu can not expect an archer which can not afford some decent armor to participate in melee. So if the upkeep is less they can use better armour which makes them more usefull in melee. more use in melee= less kiting.

[Moncho]

He is also a hybrid build, very similar to mine, and the difference between horn and long bow is just 200 gold, which is minor. The problem upkeep wise is with the double stack of extra upkeep bodkins, which should be expensive because they deal pierce damage, which ignores huge chunks of armor. (2x354 vs 11)

imo the longbow is not the best bow by far, since you cannot release the arrow until the reticule is already starting to get bigger. The rus bow and horn bow are much better for my taste. The higher missile speed is what would make it worth, but I prefer to shoot at mid range anyway.
There are tons of rus bows on the servers, and far fewer long bows anyway, so I would say it is as much of a style choice as with melee weapons.

If you want a hard hitting, slow, accurate weapon, that is what crossbows do.

[Shaksie]

The Upkeep should be decreased, not only for game balance but also for the reason that many new players start as archers in cRPG. It is just discouraging them to play the mod further on, when they hardly make gold.

As for the usefulness of archers, it highly depends on the game mode and team. Archers only become a balanced class when there is enough teamwork in their team.

Yeah heaps of people start off as an archer and because it is so detrimental to their melee and wallets, they stop shooting.
Agreed, Aus population is too small for me to be a whole lot of use to my team.

I only ever had problems with upkeep as horse archer, never as a foot archer. With Long Bow, 2x bodkin, pickaxe, leather jerkin/ragged outfit and leather gloves I made a lot of money. Still, a reduce in break chance on the bodkins wouldn't have hurt, I guess.

Also, buff non-loomed archery while keeping loomed the same. kthxbai

Hmm, it mightn't be so bad if we get more players on and have a constant multi up for grabs (and due to lack of players, I have to play DTV which seems to be very bad for making gold).
Indeed, non-loomed archery is pretty horrendous but loomed is pretty good despite the element of luck which is ever-present .

since every pd still ruined your archery wpf for (last time it was 14 wpf for 1 pd) your real archery wpf is about 60-62. That's why you do not have accuracy and your chance for breaking is very high. I'm sure that Gurnisson has something like 6pd and 170 wpf in archery, and this is BIG difference, when we talk about archery.

also, I can recommend you to use barbed arrows (still good damage versus heavy armor targets, significantly more arrows) with your longbow and something cheaper as your 1h backup. You've got too many money leaks with your build.

and, to be honest, do not try to master this dying art. There still too many whiners with crazy ideas like "how to make live of stupid 2hander\polearmer more easy and comfortable". Even with arbalest\2 steel bolts quivers and your BSS you'll have far more fun.

My real archery wpf is most certainly not very different to Gurnisson's alleged 170 with 6pd, I have 150 wpf and 6 pd..
Barbed arrows aren't a whole lot cheaper, as I said in the op, the bow is the main cause of my loss of gold.
Also 33p is quite a lot more than 37c, especially seeing that pierce headshots do an insane amount of damage, and as an archer it is our ultimate goal to shoot people in the face, and I do this fairly regularly; causing much destruction.
Hmm, indeed melee heroes' complaints are causing ranged to die off, I might try crossbows next gen actually.

The problem upkeep wise is with the double stack of extra upkeep bodkins, which should be expensive because they deal pierce damage, which ignores huge chunks of armor. (2x354 vs 114)

imo the longbow is not the best bow by far, since you cannot release the arrow until the reticule is already starting to get bigger. The rus bow and horn bow are much better for my taste. The higher missile speed is what would make it worth, but I prefer to shoot at mid range anyway.
There are tons of rus bows on the servers, and far fewer long bows anyway, so I would say it is as much of a style choice as with melee weapons.

If you want a hard hitting, slow, accurate weapon, that is what crossbows do.

I've found that my bow is significantly more expensive to upkeep than my two bags of arrows.
Hmm, I dunno, most people that I've asked and from firsthand experience say that the longbow is quite a lot better.
Untrue, you have a small window of time where you can shoot before becoming inaccurate, I believe I mentioned that I think it is too small .
Fair enough, I feel that I'm most useful as an archer when I shoot people from long range.
I've not seen an archer use anything but a longbow (or claim that a longbow is significantly better than their current bow; which is often a Horn bow) on the Aus server.
I don't want it to be that slow firing and I don't think the Arbalest is powerful enough to be used as a sniper, but I may try it next gen .

[Thomek]

Archery, like weaboo weapons, are kept delibarately nerfed, expensive and uncompetitive to keep archer population down. Too many times archer population have grown to levels where gameplay has become almost unbearable to melee, and that's why the situation is like it is.

It's still possible to do great with, but it requires enourmous time investment and skill. (melee skill too btw, look at Bagge i.ex)

The devs, and me too, simply don't want lots of archers around, because they take the focus away from the excellent and unique melee system, and push the metagame towards cav and shielders.

Now, I do think xbows are and have always been more cost-effective in terms of build/efficiency compared to archery. Xbows should require a similar build investment as archery. They, much more than archery contribute to a static, sniping, delaying, hiding gameplay..

I respect every archer I see on the field these days.. (Although i still love to kill them!)