What's really up with 2h?

[kasMVC]

Edit: As a 2hander my favorite thing to do is skey faster than the forward moving shielder while spamming right swing. Or face hugging a shielder while moving to the right and swinging my hbs.


Fucking two hands make me want to scream when I'm not using one. However, this isn't a thread complaining about the deplorable tactics that two handers use. I'm not talking about the s key stab or swing spam. I'm talking about the mechanics of the game, or more importantly if anything can be done about these mechanics.

I understand Mount and Blade does not use a perfect engine. Sure we can add all kinds of armors and game modes, but how easy is it to change character actions and weapon mechanics. Is this why the Crpg team is trying to make their own game?


Particularly annoying is the stab duration and hilt slash.

What exactly is hilt slash? Is it due to the character animation or due to the actual weapon? Can 1 handers take advantage of hilt slash or is it only for 2handers? If so please let me know so I can start using these weapons. I seem to "hilt slash" with my steel pick (although not nearly as nicely as with a 2h). 

Is there anything that can be done about the stab duration of 2hands? Does this have to do with the weapon length? Spears and certain pole arms seem to have an easy to use stab simply by turning. However, I have an extremely difficult time stabbing with the Bec or Long axes. I find stabbing with equal length 2h's to be much easier.

Add your insights or complaints. Make an original joke about 2hs. Maybe someone with knowledge of the game engine can explain to us how changes in the game are made. Also why do I glance so much less with my steel pick than any other 1h weapon.

[HarryCrumb]

:********(   <---- you

[Ramza]

Hilt slash is the immediate hit confirmation in a very close proximity (or inside) an opponent. This is not limited to slashes, as the name infers, and thrusts from any weapon can do this as well. Players seem to be able to hit the inside of another character because of the clipping of the skeletal meshes when colliding. In reality, the actual hitboxes are slightly smaller are more rounded, and do not reflect player positions completely accurately.

ex. Poorly drawn figure 1 depicting right-to-left swing

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

ie. When one player hilt slashes, the animations of the weapon swing have reached the framecount of where the the hitbox of the weapon and the hitbox of the skeleton have connected with optimal force (damage that is amplified by swing velocity). This is where faster animations and lower framecount are actually detrimental (1H weapons), as the weapons connected with the skeletal mesh, but at a poor position. Thus longer/slower weapons have a larger time frame in which to take advantage of this occurrence. This is widely observed in right-to-left 1 handed swings glancing often; their animations are either too early or past the optimal swing connection because of poor positioning, while right-to-left 2H swings can hilt-slash; their animation, although slower, have just reached optimal positioning. As a result, instances of hilt-slashes are more predominant in 2H and pole-arm weapons than in 1H.

Most 2H stabs extend the weapon farther, thus taking full advantage of its weapon length. The animations (although the hitboxes are quite ridiculous at times because of latency/visual feedback) reflect it accurately: weapon thrusts that have both hands on a hilt and thrusting from the side of the head (2H swords) extend farther than weapon thrusts that have one hand on the bottom, and one hand from the middle, thrusting from behind a bent-over body (pole-arm thrusts). With this in mind, longer weapon length does not always mean a farther stab.

Steel Picks are less likely to glance because its high pierce, bypassing the damage negation that armour (higher the armour, higher the resistance) possesses which results in the glances.

[Panos]

OH LOOK EU my old friendS WHO CALL ME A WHINER, ANOTHER DUDE, AND FROM NA, COMPLAINS FOR THE RETARDATION OF THE 2H SWORDS.

SUCK IT.

NA NA NA NA NA     

[Byrdi]

What exactly is hilt slash? Is it due to the character animation or due to the actual weapon? Can 1 handers take advantage of hilt slash or is it only for 2handers? If so please let me know so I can start using these weapons. I seem to "hilt slash" with my steel pick (although not nearly as nicely as with a 2h). 

Yes. Some may know it as turning into your swing or angling it so it hits earlier. This can be done with every weapon
Two handed weapons do a lot more damage in the beginning of their swing compared to other weapon types. This is why hilt lashing is so effective with 2h.

I wouldn't whine about hilt lashes, every weapon type has its own spam animation:
One handed weapons can spam with left swing.
And polearms can do instant stabs. (Though this has been nerfed a lot with the turnspeed nerf).

Though the instant stab with 2h hand seems a bit unbalanced, especially with weapons like Heavy Basterd Sword.
It is easy to overcome with a chamber though, since the fallaway stab tactic is so predictable and thrust attacks suffers the greatest stun from getting (chamber)blocked.

[Clockworkkiller]

Because 2h is gay, and many players are gay, thus they like gay weapons to go along with there gay lives.

[_GTX_]

Fucking two hands make me want to scream when I'm not using one. However, this isn't a thread complaining about the deplorable tactics that two handers use. I'm not talking about the skey stab or swing spam. I'm talking about the mechanics of the game, or more importantly if anything can be done about these mechanics.

If i can't stab or swing, then i dont know what's left .

[Panos]

If i can't stab or swing, then i dont know what's left .

GTX

[kasMVC]

Hilt slash is the immediate hit confirmation in a very close proximity (or inside) an opponent. This is not limited to slashes, as the name infers, and thrusts from any weapon can do this as well. Players seem to be able to hit the inside of another character because of the clipping of the skeletal meshes when colliding. In reality, the actual hitboxes are slightly smaller are more rounded, and do not reflect player positions completely accurately.

ex. Poorly drawn figure 1 depicting right-to-left swing

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

ie. When one player hilt slashes, the animations of the weapon swing have reached the framecount of where the the hitbox of the weapon and the hitbox of the skeleton have connected with optimal force (damage that is amplified by swing velocity). This is where faster animations and lower framecount are actually detrimental (1H weapons), as the weapons connected with the skeletal mesh, but at a poor position. Thus longer/slower weapons have a larger time frame in which to take advantage of this occurrence. This is widely observed in right-to-left 1 handed swings glancing often; their animations are either too early or past the optimal swing connection because of poor positioning, while right-to-left 2H swings can hilt-slash; their animation, although slower, have just reached optimal positioning. As a result, instances of hilt-slashes are more predominant in 2H and pole-arm weapons than in 1H.

Most 2H stabs extend the weapon farther, thus taking full advantage of its weapon length. The animations (although the hitboxes are quite ridiculous at times because of latency/visual feedback) reflect it accurately: weapon thrusts that have both hands on a hilt and thrusting from the side of the head (2H swords) extend farther than weapon thrusts that have one hand on the bottom, and one hand from the middle, thrusting from behind a bent-over body (pole-arm thrusts). With this in mind, longer weapon length does not always mean a farther stab.

Steel Picks are less likely to glance because its high pierce, bypassing the damage negation that armour (higher the armour, higher the resistance) possesses which results in the glances.

This was beautifully written thank you! A few questions: What are frame count and frame length?

 So 2h swords due to a higher frame rate (length?) are able to hit with high damage outside of their optimal hit confirmation window. However, why would this mean optimal force? Is a weapons wing's velocity greatest immediately after it comes off the back swing? When swinging my 2h sword I've been at 80 degrees to people and killed them (probably taking more than half of their health).

Yes. Some may know it as turning into your swing or angling it so it hits earlier. This can be done with every weapon
Two handed weapons do a lot more damage in the beginning of their swing compared to other weapon types. This is why hilt lashing is so effective with 2h.

I wouldn't whine about hilt lashes, every weapon type has its own spam animation:
One handed weapons can spam with left swing.
And polearms can do instant stabs. (Though this has been nerfed a lot with the turnspeed nerf).

Though the instant stab with 2h hand seems a bit unbalanced, especially with weapons like Heavy Basterd Sword.
It is easy to overcome with a chamber though, since the fallaway stab tactic is so predictable and thrust attacks suffers the greatest stun from getting (chamber)blocked.

You're right whining is exactly what I don't want this thread to be about! But is there any way to change the fact that 2h weapons do a lot of damage at the beginning of the swing? Or is this how it should remain.

Spamming the left to right swing on a one hand is indeed great. It has a short drawback and forward swing making it a fast way to decapitate enemies. Unless you're looking at the ground it also aims directly at the head. However, is it supremely unfair? Does the left to right swing on a one hand do great damage outside of the optimal hit box? Once again I am not trying to complain sorry for the way the original post is worded. I'm just trying to figure out what smarter/ better players than myself think about the way the swing mechanics work.

[IR_Kuoin]

Is it just me or is the whine and rage circle of weapon classes in cRPG changing and becoming more stronger for each patch? HX and 2h being the center of attention now, archery previously. But I guess that is how the changes happens. Also, ever tried doing the 2hand stab IRL? It looks so weird. I think the flamberge got the most "realistic" stab for 2handers. And changing the animation would mean that feint heroes would have a harder time looking into the ground while clicking their buttons trying to look like a real pro. Polearm stab for all or most 2hands, would work, no?

[San]

For framecount,
when analyzing animations in videogames, the 'frame' is the unit of measurement. Typically, most games that rely on animations frame-by-frame have a frame per second of 60, so a frame is usually 1/60 of a second.
Under 5 frames is typically fast, and above ~11 - 12 is typically slow.

So when he said framecount in that situation, it is the number of frames from the beginning of the animation to where your swing is registered as doing damage.

There is a damage multiplier based on the angle of the weapon with your opponent. (that or the angle between yourself and your opponent). I can't say for sure why certain animations just give better results.


Before the turn radius nerf, 2h stabs used to be much easier to deal with for me, since the chamber timing was very predictable and was the same timing from stab release (discounting very late hits).

[Byrdi]

You're right whining is exactly what I don't want this thread to be about! But is there any way to change the fact that 2h weapons do a lot of damage at the beginning of the swing? Or is this how it should remain.

I understand why people do not like the hilt lashes (left right for 2h). But I really do not see this as the problem. Even if this was a problem, there would be no way to fix it without removing hilt lashing completely (for all weapons). Which in general would result in a buff for 2h.

We once had a slower and more realistic looking stab animation for 2h (the first one that replaced the crazy native animation). It wasn't perfect, but it might be time to bring it out again.

Otherwise the turn speed for 2h should be redone, giving it a separate formula with a weight penalty higher than the other weapons. Something like factor 1.5.
This would make it a lot harder to "hilts lash"/turn into with the trust, hopefully as hard as it is with polearms.

[Artyem]

Well, you see:

2h is the master race, and has thus been declared by the Developers and a large portion of the community.

2h is the master race and will forever be buffed, ur al gey fite m irl i train ufc

So, of course they have better animations, weapons, damage, and speed.  I mean, every game has to have something similar.


Seriously though, I don't think the 'problems' with two handers come from developer bias, but I do think it has a strong community bias considering a large portion of the game was proven to use two handers.  I thought that maybe the addition of nudge would throw some of that off, but after witnessing Bumblebee switch to a long dagger, nudge, and then back to a +3 longsword in the matter of a second or two, I figured that hope went down the drain.

Two Handed animations are currently the 'best', and I don't mean that they look the best or seem to be the best, they literally seem to have the largest advantage over any of the other weapon types.  The stab animation, even before the change, was fucking ludicrous, it was like reaching across the entire galaxy with the start speed of the Millennium Falcon and ending with the speed of a slug slowly drowning itself in a pool of super glue and morphine; yet it still held the power to black bar you in one hit.  I still experience this with the new 2h stab animation, but not as much.

The swing animations for 2h are:

Shorter, but much easier to turn with and almost never glances.

The other swing animation is

Longer, harder to turn with but still almost never glances.

The relative distance between the pommel stone of your sword and the tip of the sword when compared to the location of your enemy holds no factor in how much damage is dealt.  Top this off with the fact that unless you're a straight agi-build they'll easily out speed you in just about any situation and you've got yourself a good old fashioned turd sandwich of a game.

Yet, for some reason, we keep coming back.