Horses have no natural predators

[Gorath]

*As an aside:  Shields blocking the legs/head of your horse is bullshit Huey   

[Keshian]

Horse archers actually do so much less damage than lancers and if you just dodge left or right can avoid the arrows, you can't avoid lancers.  Pre-Janaury not a big deal to avoid a lance thrust by moving into the horse and being trampled or moving away on the other side at the last moment, but since January its become almost impossible to avoid the gigantic hitboxes of lances even when you are trampled you are hit.  Part of this is the overall lower levels of everyone so less athletics, but riders have 2x or more of riding skill than they used to.  I'm not sure how the developers calculated it, but -2 speed/maneuverability compared to +3-4 riding skill, cavalry is both faster and more maneuverable since January.  Riding skill matters a lot more than -2 speed on 52 speed horse (4% decrease), a lot could be fixed just by making the riding skilla  6 agility requirement and reducing horse's riding requirement by 1.  I'd much rather have more cavalry on battlefield with realistic abilities than fewer cavalry with superhuman (superhorse?) maneuverability and speed.

[Gorath]

Horse archers actually do so much less damage than lancers and if you just dodge left or right can avoid the arrows, you can't avoid lancers.  Pre-Janaury not a big deal to avoid a lance thrust by moving into the horse and being trampled or moving away on the other side at the last moment, but since January its become almost impossible to avoid the gigantic hitboxes of lances even when you are trampled you are hit.  Part of this is the overall lower levels of everyone so less athletics, but riders have 2x or more of riding skill than they used to.  I'm not sure how the developers calculated it, but -2 speed/maneuverability compared to +3-4 riding skill, cavalry is both faster and more maneuverable since January.  Riding skill matters a lot more than -2 speed on 52 speed horse (4% decrease), a lot could be fixed just by making the riding skilla  6 agility requirement and reducing horse's riding requirement by 1.  I'd much rather have more cavalry on battlefield with realistic abilities than fewer cavalry with superhuman (superhorse?) maneuverability and speed.

Again, all the more reason infantry should have double tapped movements (lunges, dodges, etc).

[tankmen]

Again, all the more reason infantry should have double tapped movements (lunges, dodges, etc).

  i agree with this, and as stated before on another cav whine nerf cav, remove the loljump that people in plate with 2her can preform in which they jump over my horse and me n kill me.*edit* if you nerf cav that is

[Keshian]

  i agree with this, and as stated before on another cav whine nerf cav, remove the loljump that people in plate with 2her can preform in which they jump over my horse and me n kill me.*edit* if you nerf cav that is

Just lift your lance an inch and those jumpers die pretty easily, lance hitboxes are defintiely large enough to cover jumpers.

[Gurnisson]

you can't avoid lancers.

You're doing it wrong.

Lancers are a very strong class, no doubt about that, but can be countered by using your brain.

[Gorath]

Just lift your lance an inch and those jumpers die pretty easily, lance hitboxes are defintiely large enough to cover jumpers.

Yeah, that's what Huey started doing to counter my jump slashing.  Now I go for the legs of his horse instead, but he's learned that his shield can forcefield protect his horses legs even though he's sitting 3 feet away from them....

 

[Keshian]

You're doing it wrong.

Lancers are a very strong class, no doubt about that, but can be countered by using your brain.

Pre-January I would agree with you, I actually annoyed a lot of cavalry how often I could avoid them despite them gunning for me or hunting me down.  But the advantages are all on their side of the court at this point where 7 athletics is high now, but 5 riding is low (used to be reverse) where their horse not only has more speed than your footman (makes sense, though now they have far more speed than any ordinary horse), but also turns on a dime and is more maneuverable than a footman (doesn't make any sense, unless horses can't break their ankles when switching 180 degrees at near full speed).  Yes, it is possible 1 out of 5 times to avoid the lance, but then they just instantly turn their horse and lance again from behind you or go a little ways away, then ride full speed in a couched lance that outdistances any weapon you might use, unless you are a dedicated pikeman.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

I got both, a dedicated lancer and a dedicated sword&board horseman. I play them with most likely the same efficiency.

Most likely?
 
Sword&board has the higher skill ceiling and feels stronger at low speed and against semi- or unaware groups.

Feels stronger? As opposed to "Is stronger"?

How exactly is a multi hit to kill attack stronger than a high probability 1/2 hit kill? Against an unaware opponent all other things being equal surely the attack with he highest probability of a 1 hit kill is stronger...

How is the sword better at low speed than the lance? Maybe against low or no armour targets but otherwise I believe the piercing damage trumps cutting damage, even when marginally lower. Against medium or heavy armour the lance is most certainly stronger at pretty much any speed on account of its armour piercing abilities.

It's even possible to kill several in one go. The bumpslash allows them to fight some aware targets better than the stab only lance cavalry, depending on the skill and arms of the victim. A bump-slash is alot easier to pull off than the bumbstab. On a related note the one-handed stab on horseback is surprisingly efficient. Furthermore the 1h+shield rider make half-decent footmen once dehorsed and don't have to change to a side weapon like lancers have to. Their disadvantage clearly is cav duel where the lancer have the crucial reach advantage.

What is stopping the lancer from taking a sidearm and being just as efficient when dehorsed? What about having to pull out a sidearm makes a disadvantage when dehorsed? You can change weapon whilst on the ground and be up standing with your sword out just the same as someone who has a 1h as their primary weapon.

Also I believe it is possible for any class to "kill several in one go". That it is possible for a sword and horseman to kill a few guys does not mean it is not easier for a lancer.

The bumpslash is a good advantage but a bump stab is far from impossible. However these bump attacks are very risky as they require you to get extremely close to your opponent. Furthermore both classes can utilise them so the point is? If it is that the sword and horseman can do it a bit more easily then what about all the many things the lancer can do more eaisly?


The lancer on the other hand profits the most from high speeds and the couch is a good tool to take out unaware tincans with one attack. However they don't have the "cadenz" that is needed to deal with a group of footmen quickly. A single unmounted target that seems unaware is easier and with less risk taken out because of the range of the lance that makes it harder for the footman to surprise the horseman with a fake.  The 1h cavalry have to take higher risks here. However once the footman is aware and down-blocking the chance to kill him is rather low.

And a sword and horseman can deal with a group of footmen quickly? If anyone can do this it is surely the lancer with the unblockable couch attack which equalises any perceived easiness in down-blocking as opposed to side blocking. It is not like it is much harder to do a side block against a sword and horseman than it is to downblock against a lancer, of course it is somewhat easier, but try and block the couch.

I don't see the need to change anything here.

Really though it comes down to the two things I talked about earlier.

That lancers can stab you without worrying about the "sweetspots" that 1h and 2h users have to worry about. Being able to stab you properly and fully even when you are right next to them and the length of their weapon should make it near impossible.

Conversely I can be right next to a lancer and hitting him with my sideswing alongside him when we are both stationary. My attack can bounce off not even interrupting him despite my using the most powerful sword you can use on horseback and he then stabs me when I am but inches away from him and his lance is 180 length.

When I have gotten into this position I should be winning not dead!

Secondly that they can attack with a good powerful speed bonus, with massive damage compared to all other melee weapons on horseback at all these ridiculous angles. As opposed to me using my sword in the above described manner, as it should be used. The advantage of a sword is surely meant to be its versatility in close range and sideways attacks. This is not the case though.

So please if you think that things are fine as they are then please, I request you explain to me why:

1) it is that lances can ignore the sweetspots all other weapons are subject to and attack even though it should be impossible with such a long weapon at such close range.
2) it is that lances should have this ridiculous attack angle that negates the utility of swords on horseback.

I would like some answers because really these two things make no sense to me.

---

And do not get me wrong, I can beat lancers a lot of the time, especially before the ridiculous throwing nerfs when I actually had an ace up my sleeve. This is not crying because I repeatedly get owned. But I have been playing this game forever, I know how sword and horse is played and I have a lot of tricks to pull out on these lancers. But when I make a good plan and some of this ridiculous stuff happens when I really could not have done anything better I am just left thinking. Why?

[Huey Newton]

i'd say limit lancing to a 120 degree arc directly in front of the lancer.
No more lancing backwards
No more lancing while making tight turns
Lancers are no longer OP
But lancing wouldn't be impossible

However if this is done
PLEASE DONT ALLOW PEOPLE TO JUMP AND ATTACK WITH BIGASS WEAPONS
Such as
Pikes
Long Spears
All greatswords
Heavy great long axe (that weapon needs to be unbalanced)
Bigass bardiches

Basically use your imagination
If you don't think balton can lift and swing it while jumping, noone should be able to

[Bjarky]

Pre-January I would agree with you, I actually annoyed a lot of cavalry how often I could avoid them despite them gunning for me or hunting me down.  But the advantages are all on their side of the court at this point where 7 athletics is high now, but 5 riding is low (used to be reverse) where their horse not only has more speed than your footman (makes sense, though now they have far more speed than any ordinary horse), but also turns on a dime and is more maneuverable than a footman (doesn't make any sense, unless horses can't break their ankles when switching 180 degrees at near full speed).  Yes, it is possible 1 out of 5 times to avoid the lance, but then they just instantly turn their horse and lance again from behind you or go a little ways away, then ride full speed in a couched lance that outdistances any weapon you might use, unless you are a dedicated pikeman.

not true, i have 20 wpf in polearm and i can stop a coucher with an boar spear (time it right and aim for the horses head), if he has an heavy lance, u use an warspear or awlpike, only when he has an jousting lance, u need a pike, bamboo, long awlpike or another lance to counter him.

[Gorath]

i'd say limit lancing to a 120 degree arc directly in front of the lancer.
No more lancing backwards
No more lancing while making tight turns
Lancers are no longer OP
But lancing wouldn't be impossible

Reasonable

However if this is done
PLEASE DONT ALLOW PEOPLE TO JUMP AND ATTACK WITH BIGASS WEAPONS
Such as
Pikes
Long Spears
All greatswords
Heavy great long axe (that weapon needs to be unbalanced)
Bigass bardiches

Basically use your imagination
If you don't think balton can lift and swing it while jumping, noone should be able to

But most of what you listed are light enough that people could jump and swing with it though.
A greatsword is what, 8-14lbs?  You can't jump and swing 8-14lbs?  Don't need to be buff, unless you're a cripple anyone should be able to do this.

[Huey Newton]

ReasonableBut most of what you listed are light enough that people could jump and swing with it though.
A greatsword is what, 8-14lbs?  You can't jump and swing 8-14lbs?  Don't need to be buff, unless you're a cripple anyone should be able to do this.

for balance sake
not realism sake
if we want realism, i kill you every time you get trampled by by 1500 pound horsey at 50 mph
-_-

if lancing is nerfed then the lolstab/jump should too
for balance sake

also
you cant deny jumping and stabbing a pike or long spear isnt flat out retarded

[Gorath]

for balance sake
not realism sake
if we want realism, i kill you every time you get trampled by by 1500 pound horsey at 50 mph
-_-

if lancing is nerfed then the lolstab/jump should too
for balance sake

also
you cant deny jumping and stabbing a pike or long spear isnt flat out retarded

Sure it is kind of retarded, HOWEVER it's all we have since we don't have proper lunges and dodges.  The mobility that infantry has on foot is retarded.  We can't dodge, we move at a set speed all the time.  It's just stupid.  Like a person couldn't/wouldn't dive out of the way of your 1500lb horsey.  Getting rid of jumpslashing without giving footmen proper movement would just be an uncalled for nerf to infantry mobility that's already shitty to begin with.

[Paul]

Yes, most likely. I can't compare them directly because I can't play them at the same time. Multiboxing would get me banned.

Balancing suggestions from me are based on making it so that it "feels right". That's why I use terms like "feels stronger" opposed to "is stronger". I'm sick of people stating their own point of view as facts to base their blatant lobbyism on. I don't mean you with that, Plazek. You try with try back up you point of view with arguments.

Not having to take a sideweapon is of course an advandage. Even if it is for the lower upkeep only.

At low speeds, even when being stopped, I find myself with more options when using sword and board. Also, when being behind an unaware group of footman I can sometimes manage to take out several of their archers and light armored people in one go. I'm using a light lance on my polearm horseman and I can't do it with him. Furthermore I think I do alot better in supporting a footman who is in a 1on1 with the sword than with the lance. Maybe I just suck horribly with the lance though.

Sweetspots are hardcoded and yes, they are kinda fucked up for 1h on horseback. With WSE we might look into that. I could live with a slightly lower lance angle too. However not as limited as it was in Native beta at some point or as we had it briefly in cRPG. And yes, because it "felt horribly". I'd rather add some kind of risk and reward mechanic like letting a successful overhead chamberblock from the sword&board horseman disarm the lancer under certain conditions.