Horses have no natural predators

[22nd_King_Plazek]

I think people are QQing over some cav that do very well
OP= anyone can do very well with little practice
that's not lancing
lancing takes practice
is the new pub cav starting c-rpg OP?
No
the truth is you can lolstab the shit out of 75% all cav out there today
seems people been lanced too much by that other 25% who know why they're doing.

Why is it not lancing?

Longest range attack on horseback
Highest damage attack on horseback
Best angle of attack on horseback

All you have to learn is the range of your lance and its speed so you know the timing. These two things are very easy to master. 22nd_Jesus made some crazy insta lvl 30 for the lulz and it was a lancer. He went from mid-high range in the kill list to getting all these crazy k/d ratios within a day.

What other type of attack allows you to one hit people at such range and speed? What other weapon gives you such freedom of attack direction?

---

I am primarily a sword and horseman when I ride my horse nowadays. I can tell you now I am at a large disadvantage when it comes to fighting lancers. I have to maneuver extremely carefully or I get stabbed and killed in one or two hits, same with my horse and I ride a destrier. I have to make sure I have  a decent speed when I am striking against even medium armour and also that my position is good relative to my opponent or the attack just glances off. This is with the most powerful sword you can take on horseback, the longsword. This is also a problem that does not phase lancers. They can get fine strikes against me even when I am all in their face trying to stab them, even though the tip of their lance is like a metre behind me and I should be too close for them to be effective. Hell they can stab me and get good damage when I am riding away giving them a negative speed bonus, and if they have a positive speed bonus on their side? Well then I can wave good bye, while me getting those positive bonuses I still need multiple hits to defeat them.

But of course, lancers are meant to be good against other cavalry. I can accept the range and the damage. The two major problems IMO are the sweetspot mechanics allowing you to still stab a guy even when he is far too close, and the most important point the attack angle is ridiculously wide. The advantage of swords vs lances should be the attack angle and ability to fight when up close. This is not the case because of these two mechanics.

But how do they fare against infantry and the like compared to other types of cavalry? Obviously lancers have the one hit kill ability still, and if not they can definitely take a very large chunk of health away. They can do a lot more damage in one strike than ANY other type of cavalry. They also have the longest melee range of any other type of cavalry this once again gives them a key advantage. A skilled lancer can easily outrange almost any opponent if he plays carefully and the infantry lets him get a fine position. So they also have less risk than ANY other type of melee cavalry.

Please explain how more damage with less risk is not overpowered? In relation to other cavalry types. Please explain what about 1h and horse or 2h and horse equalises these great advantages ultimately bringing lancers level in terms of power.

Or you know, say some more random stuff backed up with no argument.

[Gorath]

The biggest thing that pisses me off about lancers is that somehow they've figured out how to lance you both straight down through their horse*1
and lance straight in front of the horse where it's supposed to be a deadzone of safety (even though you get trampled by the horse still)

*1  Ask John, who abused the turning radius of the horse to chain-bump while thrusting his lance straight down under his horse for a perfect stun-lock on his cav

[Huey Newton]

Why is it not lancing?

Longest range attack on horseback
Highest damage attack on horseback
Best angle of attack on horseback

All you have to learn is the range of your lance and its speed so you know the timing. These two things are very easy to master. 22nd_Jesus made some crazy insta lvl 30 for the lulz and it was a lancer. He went from mid-high range in the kill list to getting all these crazy k/d ratios within a day.

What other type of attack allows you to one hit people at such range and speed? What other weapon gives you such freedom of attack direction?

---

I am primarily a sword and horseman when I ride my horse nowadays. I can tell you now I am at a large disadvantage when it comes to fighting lancers. I have to maneuver extremely carefully or I get stabbed and killed in one or two hits, same with my horse and I ride a destrier. I have to make sure I have  a decent speed when I am striking against even medium armour and also that my position is good relative to my opponent or the attack just glances off. This is with the most powerful sword you can take on horseback, the longsword. This is also a problem that does not phase lancers. They can get fine strikes against me even when I am all in their face trying to stab them, even though the tip of their lance is like a metre behind me and I should be too close for them to be effective. Hell they can stab me and get good damage when I am riding away giving them a negative speed bonus, and if they have a positive speed bonus on their side? Well then I can wave good bye, while me getting those positive bonuses I still need multiple hits to defeat them.

But of course, lancers are meant to be good against other cavalry. I can accept the range and the damage. The two major problems IMO are the sweetspot mechanics allowing you to still stab a guy even when he is far too close, and the most important point the attack angle is ridiculously wide. The advantage of swords vs lances should be the attack angle and ability to fight when up close. This is not the case because of these two mechanics.

But how do they fare against infantry and the like compared to other types of cavalry? Obviously lancers have the one hit kill ability still, and if not they can definitely take a very large chunk of health away. They can do a lot more damage in one strike than ANY other type of cavalry. They also have the longest melee range of any other type of cavalry this once again gives them a key advantage. A skilled lancer can easily outrange almost any opponent if he plays carefully and the infantry lets him get a fine position. So they also have less risk than ANY other type of melee cavalry.

Please explain how more damage with less risk is not overpowered? In relation to other cavalry types. Please explain what about 1h and horse or 2h and horse equalises these great advantages ultimately bringing lancers level in terms of power.

Or you know, say some more random stuff backed up with no argument.

agree with this
however.
Should lancing be nerfed, perhaps even brought back to that horribad version after the recent large patch, what will become of lancers?
Or if not that, what should be done to them?

Theres still plenty of risk..
Your comparing a specific class to a specific class which is a very bad way to discuss game balance
because every type of class is designed to counteract other classes. 2h swords are obviously not designed to beat lancers on foot or horseback. So why compare them?
Thats like me comparing a pikeman to a sword and board.. Why does the pike lose? Cause its not designed to beat sword and board.
Lancers weakness is ranged and long polearms. Why not more appropriately discuss the balance between them?

back to the risk
One mistake and you're dead
Period
whereas several other classes can afford to make one mistake.
I've said it before and i'll say it again. Lancing is a high risk and high reward venture

Period.

[Kafein]

Jesus christ dude...

Im sorry, but if you have to chamber a lancer lance in order to get a hit in on him, then you are seriously doing something wrong and should get some help. I haven't read your earlier posts as of yet, but if this post is any indicator of what i'm missing out on, then i'm going to assume you've never truly played cav or are just extremely biased. Unless you're on one of those armored bank breaking horses, most things are going to 1/2-shot hit you if you're going at them with any kind of speed. I won't mention how situational  cav players are. Certain maps, going on horse back just isn't  a smart option. It's much more convenient for infantry classes. Hell, even if it isn't a infantry map many 2 handed swords or some long 1 handers can bring down a charging cavalry player. If you want to bing out the Arabian horse and it's maneuverability, fine, but you're forgetting the a sharp blade of grass is damn-near likley to cause it fall apart. It's such a delicate horse.  Again, this is coming from someone who has no love for cav; the new lance speed reduction has also made it more challenging for cav players. Sorry if you disagree, but Cav is in a good place atm in my opinion.

Simply plain false. There's no 2h weapon that outranges a lance, period. And the only polearms that can are long spears and pikes. And it's simply retarded to try with a 1h.

I terms of stats, the heavy lance is even easier to use now with it's reduced speed. The time window to hit is longer. Furthermore, it does way too much damage, both realism and balance-wise. A lance used with one hand couldn't do that much damage because the wielder had to hold it very firmly to transfer just a little part of the force of the horse. That's why the couched lance technique was developped, to get enough impact out of the horse speed.

This would be okay only if horses couldn't turn like LM cars like some do now (Arabian warhorse), and survive more than two arrows. The combination of this plus the 360° turret lancing system (you can even hit someone directly behind you with a lance) makes light cav with lance the only viable option for horsemen, like GGS was the only serious choice for 2 handers before recent patches.

Another problem of lancers is the ability to hit and do considerable damage, even at very close range. Lances are made for devastating charges, not for proper combat versus infantry.

I'd say, we nerf the simple lances damage heavily and reintroduce long lances (but still shorter than pikes and long spears) for couching only and decrease the couched lance recovery timer to nearly zero. The couched lance technique requires speed, like any realistic horseback attack (1h cav for example), but unlike current lancing.

Also :

The biggest threats to melee cav are: (in descending order)

Horse Archers, pikes, polearm users, archers(+throwers+xbowers), 2handers.

HA's and pikers are classes that the melee cav cant win over at all in a 1vs1.


Biggest threats to Horse archers:

Other horse archers, archers.  (where archers are normally at a disadvantage, but they can still take down HA's)


As you can see, melee cavalry has a lot of "natural predators", though I still think throwing should get a little buff by reducing the penalty powerthrow makes on wpf. However, HA's have no real counters, except other HA's, which would then put them at an equal footing. (but getting countered by itself isnt really a counter)

So the title of this topic should be changed to: Horse archers have no natural predators

This.

[22nd_King_Plazek]

Swordsmen on horseback should be a viable cavalry class, in the correct situation.

ie When I am right next to a lancer horse to horse hacking at him and his lance is too long to be able to stab me. Except it isn't and he can stab me anyway.
This is what I think should be balanced. There are plenty of situations where lancers should has some measure of disadvantage but in the realities of the game, they do not, and yes I think the attack angle of lancers should be limited by some degree. Being able to attack to your rear with a lance as you ride past some is ridiculous.

As for the risk.

Sword and horse charging an infantryman with a short spear.
vs
Lancer charging an infantryman with a short spear.

Who has more risk?

---
Cavalry itself is "high risk" to a point in the way you mean it. But lancers are not unique to that. As a sword and horseman I am in just as much danger of crashing into a wall or a tree, of having a spearman jump out from behind a corner or the various risks that come from careless cavalry play.


---
Anyway my real point was all these guys are complaining about "cavalry" but the real problem they are describing is that of lancers. It is easy and overpowered, even compared to other cavalry types (which are not massively challenging anyway if you play them wisely).

If the lancer is powerful even compared to the already strong general melee cavalry class then maybe it should be balanced?


This is my point.

[BD_Guard_Bane]

Completely agree with Plazek.

Especially this:

Anyway my real point was all these guys are complaining about "cavalry" but the real problem they are describing is that of lancers. It is easy and overpowered, even compared to other cavalry types (which are not massively challenging anyway if you play them wisely).

If the lancer is powerful even compared to the already strong general melee cavalry class then maybe it should be balanced?

Most of the suggestions to limit cavalry will affect lancers the least and other cav the most.

[Gorath]

Put the lance fix back like before all the whining got it reverted.  It was better that way.

[Huey Newton]

Put the lance fix back like before all the whining got it reverted.  It was better that way.

i'll tell you right now if that happens, lancing will die.
Not get nerfed so its not so easy mode
It will die out

[Gorath]

i'll tell you right now if that happens, lancing will die.
Not get nerfed so its not so easy mode
It will die out

IF that were the case it's only because cav are so used to easy mode, and WANT easy mode so badly that they refuse to adapt and learn to play using altered mechanics.  IE:  Problem with player mentality.

[Huey Newton]

IF that were the case it's only because cav are so used to easy mode, and WANT easy mode so badly that they refuse to adapt and learn to play using altered mechanics.  IE:  Problem with player mentality.

I disagree
have you tried lancing with the terribad animation?
its horrendous
Of course lancing in this game is unrealistic, but its not SO OP to the point where it needs to be realistic
For the sake of game balance, that animation needs to be stored away in a deep dark corner of calradia

i'm sure there are plenty other ways to nerf lancing, I dont think overhauling it will solve any problems. It might even create more. With no more cavalry chasing down archers, you get to fight more ranged! your fav i know 

[Gorath]

I disagree
have you tried lancing with the terribad animation?
its horrendous

That's what 2hers said about the new stab animation too.  They adapted just fine with it.
Archers said it about the new bow animations.  They adapted just fine with it.
Good cav will adapt just fine.  Scrub cav will rage quit.  That's a good thing.

With no more cavalry chasing down archers, you get to fight more ranged! your fav i know 

Meh.  I've come to the sad sad conclusion that there's just so many fuckwits infecting this game that I'm going to have to deal with ranged homoeroticism all the time no matter what anyways.

*Don't get me wrong, I like having cav around.  I wish the game was melee and cav only.  You know, MOUNT & BLADE rather than my old friend & Arrow.

[Paul]

I got both, a dedicated lancer and a dedicated sword&board horseman. I play them with most likely the same efficiency.
 
Sword&board has the higher skill ceiling and feels stronger at low speed and against semi- or unaware groups. It's even possible to kill several in one go. The bumbslash allows them to fight some aware targets better than the stab only lance cavalry, depending on the skill and arms of the victim. A bumb-slash is alot easier to pull off than the bumbstab. On a related note the one-handed stab on horseback is surprisingly efficient. Furthermore the 1h+shield rider make half-decent footmen once dehorsed and don't have to change to a side weapon like lancers have to. Their disadvantage clearly is cav duel where the lancer have the crucial reach advantage.

The lancer on the other hand profits the most from high speeds and the couch is a good tool to take out unaware tincans with one attack. However they don't have the "cadenz" that is needed to deal with a group of footmen quickly. A single unmounted target that seems unaware is easier and with less risk taken out because of the range of the lance that makes it harder for the footman to surprise the horseman with a fake.  The 1h cavalry have to take higher risks here. However once the footman is aware and down-blocking the chance to kill him is rather low.

I don't see the need to change anything here.

[Keshian]

However once the footman is aware and down-blocking the chance to kill him is rather low.

Uh, no.  Just have to switch to couched lance or bump-lance using the much higher speed of the horse compared to the footman or circle around since no one can hold a continual downblock and not get raped by the rest of the enemy team through ranged (slower movement) or enemy melee (slash in back as he has to continually turn to face lancer with downblock (most lancers use horses with high speed and maneuverability) or another cav person comes along from behind.  The down block is not some universal protection against couchable lances.

I agree with Huey, the original animation changes was too great the last patch, but it does seem strange that people can turn 270 degrees in the saddle and do full damage, maybe limiting the general turning ability on whoreback to 180 degrees and NOT some narrow 70 degrees window once you start a lance thrust.  or beter yet just make riding a 6 agility requirement OR change the manueverability and speed horse stats in recognition that many cavalry have 6-8 riding skill and heirloomed horses.

[Gorath]

I agree with Huey, the original animation changes was too great the last patch, but it does seem strange that people can turn 270 degrees in the saddle and do full damage, maybe limiting the general turning ability on whoreback to 180 degrees and NOT some narrow 70 degrees window once you start a lance thrust. 

90 degrees imo.  That gives you the full frontal cone.

[Dezilagel]

The biggest threats to melee cav are: (in descending order)

Horse Archers, pikes, polearm users, archers(+throwers+xbowers), 2handers.

Out of these, only HA (and to an extent archers) can be considered "predators", as cav can just choose to avoid the others 

And FYI, HA is cav too.

HA's and pikers are classes that the melee cav cant win over at all in a 1vs1.

HA's yes (but they're g@y anyways and imo should have their role completely redefined), but saying that melee cav can't 1v1 pikemen is plain BS. Ever heard of dismounting?

So the title of this topic should be changed to: Horse archers have no natural predators

Nope, the horses are the problem.