Horses have no natural predators

[Darkkarma]

I heard that horse is actually quite the nice meal. So... horse steak anyone

You heard right. Horse is delicious.

[Rumblood]

I rarely see any single cav doing as well as described. Most averagely skilled cav get 4 or 5 kills and then their horse dies. . I do my best to make that number less but it depends on the horse and the number of them since I run out of spears so quickly. I am a hybrid thrower/accountant now. The only people I see getting swaths of kills like that are tripple heirloomed plated charger riders, with a shield and plate armor, riding around chopping.

Which means they will average 16-4 on a map. If "average" archers were going 16-4 and and the "skilled" were going 32-1, they would be nerfed so hard that their kids next fps would feel the impact. ANY class where the "average" skilled player has a 4:1 K/D ratio and the top 10% has 20:1 would have been nerfed into oblivion long ago. That number speaks far louder than any counter arguments made in favor of keeping the status quo.

[Overdriven]

Which means they will average 16-4 on a map. If "average" archers were going 16-4 and and the "skilled" were going 32-1, they would be nerfed so hard that their kids next fps would feel the impact. ANY class where the "average" skilled player has a 4:1 K/D ratio and the top 10% has 20:1 would have been nerfed into oblivion long ago. That number speaks far louder than any counter arguments made in favor of keeping the status quo.

Then why haven't 2h been nerfed? I see 2h top the scoreboards with scores like that far more than cav players and yet no one ever nerfs them and as soon as it's suggested there is uproar.

An additional point Very rarely have I heard of someone who has seen a change in their environment (that being the battlefield, general life, a game or even nature [see evolution]) say 'well I'm not changing my playstyle' and come out on top (pro tip they usually lose [see Neanderthals])

I think everyone should pay attention to that. If you can't adapt, you will die. If my horse gets downed as HA, I find some cover and act as an archer and shoot the enemy horses down to minimise the threat. You have to adapt to your situation. If the enemy has crap loads of cav, find a weapon to take them down, I assure you it can be done. It's simply infantry not willing to adapt to a situation and just continue playing their style of play that leads to cav getting kills if there are a good number on a server.

Add on the fact that a lot of this is map dependant. Most cavalry relies heavily on a decent amount of space to manouvre (except armoured) and so on small CQ maps cav tends to die quickly. On larger open maps, where cav is designed to be in their element, of course infantry is going to get owned because open maps are a weakness for infantry, unless you work together to combat it.

[Seawied]

Then why haven't 2h been nerfed? I see 2h top the scoreboards with scores like that far more than cav players and yet no one ever nerfs them and as soon as it's suggested there is uproar.

um what? You're obviously not a 2h user, because they got a good whack with the nerfing stick recently regarding their thrusts.

2h is the only class I don't have an alt for at the moment, and even I can see how much this is affecting them. Their thrusts whiff a lot more often now than they ever did before.

2h is in a pretty good place right now in my opinion. Not too strong or weak.

[Lech]

um what? You're obviously not a 2h user, because they got a good whack with the nerfing stick recently regarding their thrusts.

2h is the only class I don't have an alt for at the moment, and even I can see how much this is affecting them. Their thrusts whiff a lot more often now than they ever did before.

2h is in a pretty good place right now in my opinion. Not too strong or weak.

I would personally see them nerfed even more, but without adding more skill (not possible without wse) into s&b it would end up stacked in 1h favor. Powerwise they do fine.

[Overdriven]

um what? You're obviously not a 2h user, because they got a good whack with the nerfing stick recently regarding their thrusts.

2h is the only class I don't have an alt for at the moment, and even I can see how much this is affecting them. Their thrusts whiff a lot more often now than they ever did before.

2h is in a pretty good place right now in my opinion. Not too strong or weak.

Regarding the thrust? That wasn't a nerf...that was just making the damn thing sensible. The thrusts were massively OP before. But that doesn't matter, the point being 2H are still top of the server a huge amount of the time compared to any other class, except maybe cav. So why shouldn't they be nerfed more. It's the same argument as the cav argument about cav having the top scores all the time.

[Keshian]

Regarding the thrust? That wasn't a nerf...that was just making the damn thing sensible. The thrusts were massively OP before. But that doesn't matter, the point being 2H are still top of the server a huge amount of the time compared to any other class, except maybe cav. So why shouldn't they be nerfed more. It's the same argument as the cav argument about cav having the top scores all the time.

There are a lot more 2handers than cavalry, but you see them on top of the charts about equally.  And the typical 2her averages a 1:1 k/d or less, look at the bottom half of the server and you will see a lot of 2handers and bad shielders and polearmers, not so much cav.

[EponiCo]

Then otoh if you look on the top of the list you can often see good 2h doing insane scores (saw Phyrex 2nd time this day with 40-5). If you are looking at it, yeah, 2h have been nerfed, but like cavalry the slot system favors them quite a bit, since they have the same counters (crossbow/throwing/pikes).

[Seawied]

Regarding the thrust? That wasn't a nerf...that was just making the damn thing sensible.

I think this quote right here states what your true objectives are. The idea of a nerf is to make an or class sensible, not to punish the class or item users.

Then otoh if you look on the top of the list you can often see good 2h doing insane scores (saw Phyrex 2nd time this day with 40-5). If you are looking at it, yeah, 2h have been nerfed, but like cavalry the slot system favors them quite a bit, since they have the same counters (crossbow/throwing/pikes).

I agree to an extent. The slot system did favor dedicated 2hers, but it did punish hybrids/superman builds with their batman utility belts. A 2h can no longer be a halfway decent archer/crossbowman, and 2h are now more vulnerable to cavalry. Dedicated 2hers did become stronger in a sense that they dodged one of the sweeping nerfs that affected 90% of the builds out there.

Its important to note though, that since we no longer have the batman-utility-belt builds out there, like the hybrid 2hers, that horses are now given a much more free reign than they were before.

Regardless of our opinions regarding 2hers, I'd like to try to keep the conversation on the topic. Some of you can bring up very compelling arguments regarding the issues of 2h balance for either side, but let's keep that for a different thread. As the title of the thread says, the topic is that horse have no natural predators anymore.

[Gorath]

As the title of the thread says, the topic is that horse have no natural predators anymore.

My spear/shield/1her still very much begs to differ.  Just ask Huey.

[UrLukur]

Gorath, 1h with spear (war or red tassel one) can deal with majority of horseman. But against good cavalry that know how to use it's heavy lance, it's useless. Also, horses one hit kill people. If you stop the horse with spear, you have to attack again twice to finish off light horses or more for armored (which means, you have to hold the horseman twice). After you killed the horse, you might have one free hit - with spear and 1h it's unlikely it's going to kill cav (keep in mind that any horseman worth it's salt is autokilling you if you made even small mistake, and can ninja'd you or disengage).

So yeah, horses have free reign right now.

[Darkkarma]

Gorath, 1h with spear (war or red tassel one) can deal with majority of horseman. But against good cavalry that know how to use it's heavy lance, it's useless. Also, horses one hit kill people. If you stop the horse with spear, you have to attack again twice to finish off light horses or more for armored (which means, you have to hold the horseman twice). After you killed the horse, you might have one free hit - with spear and 1h it's unlikely it's going to kill cav (keep in mind that any horseman worth it's salt is autokilling you if you made even small mistake, and can ninja'd you or disengage).

So yeah, horses have free reign right now.

Honestly, any player worth his or her salt can take down a cav player if they know what they are doing. True, a cav player can get the drop on someone and ninja them, but so can most classes, minus the clapping of hooves running at them. Cav only becomes an issue when you have a critical mass of cavalry on one team while the other has limited to none. But this issue can even be said with range of any kind. Even when im not on my crossbow character, I can bring them down with relative ease with my 2 hander(the really good cav players are abit tougher but not impossible by any means). You can say that an overwhelming number of cav players is an issue, but an overwhelming number of most classes on any one team is a huge issue for any team to deal with.

[UrLukur]

Honestly, any player worth his or her salt can take down a cav player if they know what they are doing. True, a cav player can get the drop on someone and ninja them, but so can most classes, minus the clapping of hooves running at them. Cav only becomes an issue when you have a critical mass of cavalry on one team while the other has limited to none. But this issue can even be said with range of any kind. Even when im not on my crossbow character, I can bring them down with relative ease with my 2 hander(the really good cav players are abit tougher but not impossible by any means). You can say that an overwhelming number of cav players is an issue, but an overwhelming number of most classes on any one team is a huge issue for any team to deal with.

Honestly, any player worth his salt can take down average cav player. But the requirement is that cav player have to make a mistake or don't know how to use his lance in proper way. Good player can survive against good lancer (if he have warspear, otherwise he will be couched), but killing the lancer ? No.

[Darkkarma]

Honestly, any player worth his salt can take down average cav player. But the requirement is that cav player have to make a mistake or don't know how to use his lance in proper way. Good player can survive against good lancer (if he have warspear, otherwise he will be couched), but killing the lancer ? No.

You could make that same argument with any competent manual blocker, sword and board user, or what have you. The best players of any class are going to be tough to beat, period. Also, secondary mode on swords works extremely well. Also, once said lancer is de-horsed, they are wide open for a free hit or two. Most horses also get shot to pieces by ranged fire. The new Pike makes things even easier for infantry. Hell, even the long spear will give even the best lancers trouble. As much as I hate cavalry, I have to admit that they have plenty to worry about on the battle field, even on levels where they are supposed to thrive.

To Address what Kesh said, I personally see plenty of cav players at the bottom of the list. Of course, I see more poor 2 handers, shield and polearm users, but then again, a good deal more people play infantry oriented classes. Cav is a very high risk play style, It is also very easy to team kill/screw your team over and ultimately yourself and your team as a result in many cases. Don't even get me started on ranged fire.

[Dezilagel]

Cav is a very high risk play style

I lol'd

It is also very easy to team kill/screw your team over and ultimately yourself and your team as a result in many cases.

I lol'd again.

Srsly, the only way to hit a decent lancer with a weapon shorter than a pike is to chamber his lance. This also means that many times you won't get the free hit as you down his horse by the arse.

I have already said many of the things I want to say earlier in the thread (read if interested), but as it stands infantry needs to be able to actually combat horses on the battlefield (yes, by itself, I already know you can down a horse with pike and ranged support...). Charging non-pikemen infantry poses almost zero risk to a decent lancer nowadays.