Horses have no natural predators

[Dezilagel]

Look its really fucking simple, instead of being alone, travel with a buddy.

Make sure this buddy has a shield.

2 specialized peeps to kill 1 cav, great balance! (also any decent cav will just ignore your obvious bait).

If the horse couch lances your friend and breaks the shield, he will be unable to do anything but maneuver away, this is your time to strike.

Assuming he is an idiot, (1. attacking your bait, 2. wasting couch on a defended shielder...) he still has time to correct his mistake, he can just jump.

If the horse rams into your friend, he may start swinging at you, this is the time for you to block and your friend to get back up and strike.

By the time your friend gets up, horsie is gonna be halfway to the CHN servers.

If the horse rams both you and your friend, he will be stopped for a short duration, this is the time for both you and your friend to strike.

Incorrect, he'll just burst right through you both. (assuming it is not a peasant, on a sumpter, slowed to a crawl)

If you are alone, with no shield, do not jump up into the air as you are about to be lanced, you may try and down block if the lance is not couched. Find some terrain to hide behind instead.

So... My options are: 1. Block (situational, "assuming he doesn't couch") 2. Hide/Roofcamp (also situational, and why the fuck should he force me to sit on a roof the whole round?) And how exactly do shields help against cav? Oh wait, they give a one-time block against a couch, great! (he'll prob just turn on a dime and stab you in the back before you recover from stun (ok, that last bit was not serious))

If you have a spear and shield combo that is outranged by every lance and find yourself being killed, you are not doing it right.

Sooo... If I have a spear+shield (the weakest solo combat combo, takes up 3-4 slots), and I am outranged... How is "doing it right"? Holding RMB untill your shield breaks and then run for the hills?

The reason people aren't as good against cavalry as they are against 1H/2H/Polearms is because nobody ever wants to duel a horse 1v1 on the duel servers, so nobody has developed any tactics or maneuvers except for the most experienced players.

Have you ever thought of why ppl don't want to duel horses?

Never travel alone because a cav will sneak up and eat you from behind. Especially true on maps with heavy fog.

Work with your team, ofc, don't go rambo. Problem is, Mr Cav can go rambo all he likes, you're not denying him anything.

[Cyclopsided]

uhhhhh yeah. Sure.  Pikes and other infantry guarding archers while they shoot cav down?
You are aware that it makes all cav dead without letting them be effective?
It also means you get solid archer support all map long.


lol

[they do need maneuverability lowered, hp bonus trade off to all horses. That is the only issue.]

[Camaris]

The reason people aren't as good against cavalry as they are against 1H/2H/Polearms is because nobody ever wants to duel a horse 1v1 on the duel servers, so nobody has developed any tactics or maneuvers except for the most experienced players.

This is bullshit sorry. The reason i dont fight vs many horses on duell server is that they start to attack only with couches if they see that they cant get me with normal attacks.
And if they start couching i dont attack them and the duell lasts forever or i attack because its boring and i get couched. Its ok to duell vs shield/1h horseman but its just stupid vs lancers.

In addition on battle i dont lose to one horse i lose to the ridicioulus amount of them. I cant turn 360 every 2 seconds so there will be a time i wont the horse coming.
Or i get bumbkilled or one horse bumps me infantry kills me or one horse bumps me next horse kills me.

The beautiful thing is if you onehit them cause they made stupid things.
But there are many many horses on battle so it becomes harder every day.

[Cyclopsided]

Ok, now that is a stupid counter-argument. You should definitely have some infantry vs. horse dueling practice.

I have everyone I know do duel v horse training with their weapons (with 2handed sword, pole arm, 1hander) It is a match up like all the others that happens on a regular basis in battles. You can't let it be a gaping weak spot in your skill set.

Lancers can only lance you during a certain timing interval as they charge past you. If on the off chance they go slow to negate that timing window, you just block then slash them.
If they go the normal cav way of full speed lancing, you exploit that timing window.
Fun fact: the lance thrust timing window is the exact same time as the overhead chamber window. With a short amount of practice you can chamber EVERY thrust with overheads and hit the horse's rear, dehorsing them. Most of the time the horse can clear out of your range as they pass you, but not if you stand near any obstacles, on a slope, etc.

If they attempt to couch you, that depends on your weapon as to what you do about it.
1. Short onehander? Get out of the way of the couch -- whether it be right in front or way off to the side. Anything else is a huge gamble. Lancers counter you.
2. Two handed sword? Side step out of the couches' reach, and side swipe the feet of the cavalryman. Usually an instant kill. Alternatively, get right in front of the horse where he can't couch you and just swing at them.
3. Medium reach pole arm? Same as #2.
4. Long pole arm like bamboo spear, long spear, pike? Just stab the front of the horse to stop it, and kill the guy. No issue here.


"Oh, but I am having trouble vs 1h and 2h cavalry"
They have shorter effective reach when on a horse compared to on foot. They are extremely easy to kill. This is self explanatory.

"Very well, but I am losing to several cavalry attacking me at once!"
Well, yeah. You are outnumbered 3 to one (for example). Why should you win in that scenario? If you do everything right you WILL still win, but good luck. same for any 3 on 1.

Now, the issue with horses being very maneuverable so they can circle people forever until a chance to stab them? Yeah that is stupid and horse maneuverability should be lowered just to prevent that. They shouldn't just hover right outside weapons reach.

[Lady_Cicilia_Rosewood]

a quote from a cav person, telling you to use a spear&shield combo that is outranged by every lance carried by cavalry.
convincing argument, I must say.
Awlpike is just barely long enough to beat cav, and bamboo is indeed anti cav with a shield.

I am completely serious. When it's a cavalry map, my typical loadout as when I choose to be infantry is Heavy Heater shield, Warspear and Knightly Arming Sword. Warspear + shield is a terrific combat support combo, because you can essentially dictate how far a person will penetrate a front line by thrusting the point into their chests. Targetting the 2 handed folk is so much fun, as you can swirv the point past your teammate and poke the guy who just tried to do a overhead strike. Forcing them to do lowblocks constantly really makes them shifty to any of your teammates using the opportunity.

The point is, you do not attack the rider, but the horse which is a hell of allot closer.
Just a little poke at the front of the horse and it rears. If he came at you full speed, chances are the horses is severely drained of its health or dies instantly. You can get a few nice extra stabs in, killing the horse, then when he downs...a nice piercing strike into the dehorsed cavalrymen. If that didn't kill him, you switch over to sword and finish him off. In the case you lose your shield, the warspear is a good duelling weapon to hold your own
The warspear compared to the pike doesn't have the same psycological effect of doom to a cavalrymen, so they're more willing to take a chance, which is exactly what you take advantage off. Especially when you are primed for a strike, the spear is pulled so way back...the instant you release along with a jump....you get a WTF REACH moment. Jumping horses have soft under bellies. And you can somewhat predict when they do jump if you have the situational awareness for it.

(Ive got 100 1 handed, 120 2 handed and 92 polearm wpf and 5 powerstrike)

I only have trouble taking out cavalry with this combo when it's 3 cavalry ganging up on lil ol me as infantry or an extra enemy infantry unit I have to take care of.
Cavalry persons know best what it takes to take out cavalry persons, because they spent the entire time avoiding those deaths, or applying them when they are playing as infantry or ranged. I have multiple characters, each with a different play style, and I happily use my knowledge that would normally keep me alive, into methods of doom.

For crying out loud, I've killed riders with a jump and long dagger stab attack.

[Cyclopsided]

I was saying that other shield spear combos are much more effective vs cavalry, and that war spear only works if the lancers have bad timing. This is hardly up for debate.
If a heavy lance cav has proper release timing on his attacks, you can never, and I repeat NEVER get the attack on him with the just-too-short warspear.
Now, if the lancer is bad and has bad timing, yeah you'll hit the cav before he hits you, stop his horse and kill him. That is a gamble and you will lose if the cav is competent. Anecdotes are anecdotes, etc.

If you have a shield & awlpike or longer? Oh yeah you can and will stop the horse before it lances you and kill the guy. Look at how notorious WaltF4 is on the NA servers amongst cav players in particular. He, without fail, would dehorse any cav that came near him. If he had a shorter pole arm like a warspear that would not be possible.

[Dezilagel]

2. Two handed sword? Side step out of the couches' reach, and side swipe the feet of the cavalryman. Usually an instant kill. Alternatively, get right in front of the horse where he can't couch you and just swing at them.
3. Medium reach pole arm? Same as #2.

Alot of times this is not possible (esp with ath not 7+) as:

Now, the issue with horses being very maneuverable

Fixing maneuver would fix alot of things cav, but to counter the lollancing speed bonus needs a look at aswell. (But I do think it's hardcoded  )

Lancers can only lance you during a certain timing interval as they charge past you. If on the off chance they go slow to negate that timing window, you just block then slash them.
If they go the normal cav way of full speed lancing, you exploit that timing window.
Fun fact: the lance thrust timing window is the exact same time as the overhead chamber window. With a short amount of practice you can chamber EVERY thrust with overheads and hit the horse's rear, dehorsing them. Most of the time the horse can clear out of your range as they pass you, but not if you stand near any obstacles, on a slope, etc.

Yes, good chambering will let you block lances and have a chance to strike back, but it is a darn big gamble for very little gain as:

1. There are many random factors that can mess up your chambering, ping, weird hitboxes and general lagg screws up chamberblocking much more than normal blocking (and MUCH more than lancing for that matter!)

2. Little gain: You dehorsed the cav guy by chambering his lance and just managed to dehorse him by hitting his severly wounded horse with a negative speed-bonused overhead, congratulations! That was very skillful of you! Now you just got to beat him in regular melee aswell (most lancers carry a shield, if not a big 2h/pole) and THEN you can proceed onwards (to victory!).

3. Chamberblocking lances is, to be frank, much harder than lancing itself. (add to that the "randomness" factors!)

I was saying that other shield spear combos are much more effective vs cavalry, and that war spear only works if the lancers have bad timing. This is hardly up for debate.
If a heavy lance cav has proper release timing on his attacks, you can never, and I repeat NEVER get the attack on him with the just-too-short warspear.

This is very true, and a fundamental game balance thing that I find very disturbing. Yes, if you aim for the rider with your spear, he should outrange you, but if you aim straight for the horse I think spear guy should have the advantage. (this is ofc. assuming heavy lance)

I guess it is this way to give purpose to pikes, but as it stands now pikes are good for so much more than killing horses, and regular spears feel pretty useless.

[Cyclopsided]

Just to clarify, it is not a gamble to chamber lancers. If you practice it a little, you will chamber all of them. The gap of time they can hit you and you can chamber is the same. It is actually very very easy. 100 times easier than chambering mid combat, which is admittedly hard for most.
The only random factor would be ping. So long as your ping isn't fluctuating by more than 10 in battle, that isn't a random factor either.
Hitboxes are not an issue. If you are facing the general direction of him and he comes lancing at you, and you have correct chamber timing; It will chamber.

If he is dehorsed, you usually get a free hit on him before he can get up. It has never been hard for me to kill dehorsed cavalry since half the time that free hit is a free kill. Sometimes you don't get that free hit, but that is rare. Also, if you are by any teammates (as you should be) it is effortless to mop up the rider.



As for war spear being just barely too short for dehorsing cav when used with a shield. Yeah? What about it? That is not an issue since longer ones do it fine. A heavy lance has 40 reach more than a war spear, that is more than the distance of you to the front of the horse by a small amount. If you are a gambling man it is a pretty good bet that you'll stop his horse. But not if he has proper timing.


Oh, and why do people keep forgetting about this fun fact?
If three people jump in front of a charging horse, it will stop 9 times out of ten. A horse can not bump 3 or more people at once without the horse stopping, then the three can then club the rider to death. YES, IT IS A SMALL HP SACRIFICE TO DO. But if you have 3 short one handers, what else is your option if stuck in open terrain?
I found that out first hand in a practice between BRD and Cavalieres.
Do I need to write a guide on all the ways to kill horses? It doesn't seem to be common knowledge.

[Lech]

Marathon, any cav require constant attention from infantry player.

Cav can just focus on infantry nearby, and avoid every threat.

2 or 3 cav that use teamwork have almost assured kill against lone infantry (3 infantry cant kill lone cav, can't even touch it). Which means cav can just rambo all he want, and he have edge against any non-pikeman. By definition cavalry IS imbalanced.

[Cyclopsided]

Marathon, any cav require constant attention from infantry player.

Cav can just focus on infantry nearby, and avoid every threat.

2 or 3 cav that use teamwork have almost assured kill against lone infantry (3 infantry cant kill lone cav, can't even touch it). Which means cav can just rambo all he want, and he have edge against any non-pikeman. By definition cavalry IS imbalanced.

yes, and I say they need their maneuverability lowered to fix the stupid issues. In exchange for much lowered maneuverability, a raise to charge, armor, and HP. Making cavalry more resilient and more capable of traditional cavalry tactics like cavalry charges. But no stupid bullshit.

But don't act entirely defenseless against cav is my point.
And this stuff repeatedly about infantry infantry infantry. You know, archers are in the game right, and they can dehorse cavalry with a few arrows and Cavalry can't do anything about it? Infantry and archers are supposed to work together.

[Camaris]

Ok, now that is a stupid counter-argument. You should definitely have some infantry vs. horse dueling practice.

I have everyone I know do duel v horse training with their weapons (with 2handed sword, pole arm, 1hander) It is a match up like all the others that happens on a regular basis in battles. You can't let it be a gaping weak spot in your skill set.

Lancers can only lance you during a certain timing interval as they charge past you. If on the off chance they go slow to negate that timing window, you just block then slash them.
If they go the normal cav way of full speed lancing, you exploit that timing window.
Fun fact: the lance thrust timing window is the exact same time as the overhead chamber window. With a short amount of practice you can chamber EVERY thrust with overheads and hit the horse's rear, dehorsing them. Most of the time the horse can clear out of your range as they pass you, but not if you stand near any obstacles, on a slope, etc.

If they attempt to couch you, that depends on your weapon as to what you do about it.
1. Short onehander? Get out of the way of the couch -- whether it be right in front or way off to the side. Anything else is a huge gamble. Lancers counter you.
2. Two handed sword? Side step out of the couches' reach, and side swipe the feet of the cavalryman. Usually an instant kill. Alternatively, get right in front of the horse where he can't couch you and just swing at them.
3. Medium reach pole arm? Same as #2.
4. Long pole arm like bamboo spear, long spear, pike? Just stab the front of the horse to stop it, and kill the guy. No issue here.


"Oh, but I am having trouble vs 1h and 2h cavalry"
They have shorter effective reach when on a horse compared to on foot. They are extremely easy to kill. This is self explanatory.

"Very well, but I am losing to several cavalry attacking me at once!"
Well, yeah. You are outnumbered 3 to one (for example). Why should you win in that scenario? If you do everything right you WILL still win, but good luck. same for any 3 on 1.

Now, the issue with horses being very maneuverable so they can circle people forever until a chance to stab them? Yeah that is stupid and horse maneuverability should be lowered just to prevent that. They shouldn't just hover right outside weapons reach.

99% of horsekills vs me are
if i am
a) fighting  vs other people
b) dont hear them and are killed from behind
c) im lying down on the floor cause a) or b) didnt kill but bump me.

Pls dont tell me how easy it is to kill a horseman cause i know how to do it and your tips only work if horsemans are making errors or suck. I know you are a horseman and tbh if i want tips how to kill one i dont need your tips because in your eyes it is totally fair all the time. In your eyes the cav-heirloom nerf was gimping horses to death etc. etc. etc. Its ok that you are defending your class. I probably would do it in some cases for my class too.

But in my opinion horseman were the only class which got a huge buff with the last patches and we are seeing the result on the battlefields.
I can tell you why:
- Every heirloom got nerfed so there is no special nerf for cav.
- The number of x-bows was reduced (especially the strong ones) thats a cavbuff
- The number of Pikes was reduced // thats a huge cavbuff
- The capabiltie to wear additional anticavweapons in generall was nerfed // cavbuff too.

The only reason why cavs still die is that archers sometimes shoot them, they make error, and long spear is a good melee weapon.
But it could still happen that long spear gets another nerf losing upperattack and they would vansish even more.

In conclusion (i voted everything should stay as it is in chadz vote) horseman are the most powerful class in battle as long as the map doesnt suck for them.
If the map is a cavmap they are dominating the whole battle and every other player has to change their playstyle to be succesful.
So far i can live with it but cav should probably  be the last group of players to complain about anything right now.

PS: I dont know if its too good to raise charge again to that unhealthy lvl it once had.
I agree with you that horses should lose some speed and maneuverabilty while getting some hp/armor love.

If someone would ask me to balance horses i would also finally divide them in armor/hp and speed/maneuver horses.
Having both low and highendhorses in each categorie.

[Cyclopsided]

Pls dont tell me how easy it is to kill a horseman cause i know how to do it and your tips only work if horsemans are making errors or suck. I know you are a horseman and tbh if i want tips how to kill one i dont need your tips because in your eyes it is totally fair all the time. In your eyes the cav-heirloom nerf was gimping horses to death etc. etc. etc. Its ok that you are defending your class. I probably would do it in some cases for my class too.

This paragraph could not be more wrong. Did you actually read my posts?
I play infantry, not cavalry. I usually use a pike. I have done a lot of dueling vs cavalry with various weapons to know how to fight them including all of the spear&shield combos, and everyone should. I never feel at a disadvantage in a fight vs cavalry unless I have a 1hander (or other short weapon) and am alone. This doesn't happen, ever. I never let myself be in a situation like that.
I am a tactician, and with basic tactics all your complaints are rendered useless [except for maneuverability], -- thus my posting in this thread repeatedly.

And of course cav heirlooms were nerfed, EVERY heirloom was nerfed except for armor. How could someone complain about that?
Oh, also No. None of my advice is if the horeman is bad and makes mistakes. I put only solid ways of fighting them since I disdain gambling as a method of countering.

99% of horsekills vs me are
if i am
a) fighting  vs other people
b) dont hear them and are killed from behind
c) im lying down on the floor cause a) or b) didnt kill but bump me.

A) You are outnumbered and losing. If it were another infantry behind you, the result would be the same.
B) You are alone and not paying attention to the loud galloping? I admittedly do this myself often if I am in a heated discussion over teasmpeak/vent, but otherwise no.
C) You failed at A or B to enter this scenario, as you said.
All of these again, solved by not being alone as infantry.

PS: I dont know if its too good to raise charge again to that unhealthy lvl it once had.
I agree with you that horses should lose some speed and maneuverabilty while getting some hp/armor love.

I'm not suggesting a huge increase in charge, something like 5 more damage to all horses. A considerable decrease in maneuverability would also solve the complaint that cav are "too fast" because they would have to take prominent lines and slow down for tight turns.

[Lech]

But horse can be alone. Thats called imbalance. Infantry need to play carefully, cavalry can play careless, and even if it find itself in bad position, it can recover fast.

[Diavolo]

Horses have a lot of enemies:

Pikes/spears
Archers
Crossbowers
Funky terrain that makes horses move slow or easily get ambushed.

However, I agree that throwing weapons need a buff, which will also make throwers slightly powerful against horses. More on giving a bit more power back to throwers here: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5372.0.html

[Memento_Mori]

But horse can be alone. Thats called imbalance. Infantry need to play carefully, cavalry can play careless, and even if it find itself in bad position, it can recover fast.

O RLLYYY


Nah you wrong, watch some horses charge in alone against actual good players, it's a nice laugh. Also you'll notice most good lancers don't charge in by themselves, they wait for you to be distracted with something else or to distract you themselves for other lancers or members of their team to get ya.

Horses natural predator is ANYONE who is half awake and aware.

Rule #1, don't chase the horse guys... Which I'd think would be pretty obvious, but it's not apparently. Just played a round where my team brought a lot of pikes to deal with the lancers but instead of protecting the team they all wandered around chasing after every horse that comes into their sight just to get lanced from behind and cry in dead chat "omgz cav is so lame, how my pike no work?!?!?!?!"

just my opinion, but I don't have much issues with cav unless I'm not paying attention or stuck on a bad, bad team.

no idea why I'm writing this anyways, 100 other people have said the same thing.. guess I feel like sharing xD


I agree with a little less maneuverability for more hp or something..