[Suggestion]Crossbow Rebalance

[En_Dotter]

I have searched the forum and couldn't find any thread that matches my suggestion. If my suggestion is similar to some other suggestion please post a link and i will tell admins to close this one if it is pretty much the same. Thank you for understanding.

While some of you might see this as a big nerf i would like you to read the thread entirely before you say yes or no.
As we should all know crossbows are kinda easy to use, even if you are not trained that well, but a skilled marksman would always be more deadly than a peasant or a grunt picking it up from the ground and shooting at enemies. This suggestion is about that.
While archers need power draw and throwers need power throw to use their weapon of choice properly (and even use them at all) crossbowmen do not have that requirement. I suggest renaming Power Draw skill into Marksmanship. Both archers and crossbowmen would use it but in a DIFFERENT way. Archers would still have same usage for Marksmanship. Crossbows would still have strength as only requirement but they would have additional requirement to do full damage or a bit more.
How does this work?
Lets see the list of crossbows first in order for this suggestion to make sense and i will put Marksmanship requirement in brackets. All will be explained below the list:
Hunting Crossbow (1)
Light Crossbow (2)
Crossbow (3)
Heavy Crossbow (4)
Arbalest (5)

Reminder, anyone with proper strength would be able to pick it up and shoot/reload. What happens if a guy with 0 Marksmanship takes Hunting Crossbow? He does 50% damage. With 1 in Marksmanship he does full damage. Light Crossbow would deal 50% at 0 Marksmanship and 75% damage at 1 Marksmanship and 100% at 2. Crossbow would do 50% at 0, 67% at 1 and 83% at 2, ofc 100% at 3. Heavy Crossbow in a same way 50% at 0, 62.5% at 1, 75% at 2, 87.5% at 3 and 100% at 4. Arbalest would do 50% at 0, 60% at 1, 70% at 2, 80% at 3, 90% at 4 and normal damage at 5 Marksmanship.
Now what happens when u have more than required. Each point of Marksmanship over the requirement would add 5% do damage up to 20%. Having more than 4 Marksmanship over the requirement wouldn't change the damage output. Marksmanship wouldn't change the accuracy since it wouldn't affect effective wpf.

Summary:
Skill name change: Power Draw becomes Marksmanship
Marksmanship has same effect on archers (bow users) as Power Draw has now.
Marksmanship becomes secondary requirement for crossbow users if they want to do full damage or even some more.
Hybrid crossbow users can still be hybrids with the same build but they would be less effective in the ranged combat.
This suggestion opens up possibility for undoing current (silly) slot requirement for crossbows.

Numbers i presented do not need to be like this. This is my point of view and can be changed if needed.

Thoughts, suggestion?

[BeastSVK]

I like and dislike this idea but 5 points to get arbalest will be a lot for dedicated crosbowman. Those points will be most likely removed from athletic or ironflash and they help us survive since we need to hide or run and reload..if ground pavise will be implemented this will be great feature. Maybe change those points into Wm point levels. Like if u wanna use arbalest u need have atleast 150wpf in xbows .. NI 

[Shaksie]

Yes, I think this is more than fair.
I fail to comprehend why archers have to be horrid at melee whilst crossbowers can be more than adequate.
Similarly, I think crossbows need a buff, I've tried to use them in the past with great increments of time inbetween them and every time I have been consistently disappointed with their lack of damage and accuracy.
Would allow dedicated crossbow users to be dedicated such that they are actually effective, not just highly accurate and manoeuvrable.
Retains the notion that anyone with the strength to actually pick up and load the crossbow can shoot it but to be good at it, you have to invest in its usage.
But I think marksmanship shouldn't affect bows.

I very much support this suggestion.

[Wiltzu]

I like this, except that Power Draw shouldn't be replaced with Markmanship. Markmanship should be a whole new skill.

[bruce]

This suggestion opens up possibility for undoing current (silly) slot requirement for crossbows.

If it opens up to normal crossbow being usable again by hybrids, it sounds good.

[maat]

I have searched the forum and couldn't find any thread that matches my suggestion. If my suggestion is similar to some other suggestion please post a link and i will tell admins to close this one if it is pretty much the same. Thank you for understanding.

While some of you might see this as a big nerf i would like you to read the thread entirely before you say yes or no.
As we should all know crossbows are kinda easy to use, even if you are not trained that well, but a skilled marksman would always be more deadly than a peasant or a grunt picking it up from the ground and shooting at enemies. This suggestion is about that.
While archers need power draw and throwers need power throw to use their weapon of choice properly (and even use them at all) crossbowmen do not have that requirement. I suggest renaming Power Draw skill into Marksmanship. Both archers and crossbowmen would use it but in a DIFFERENT way. Archers would still have same usage for Marksmanship. Crossbows would still have strength as only requirement but they would have additional requirement to do full damage or a bit more.
How does this work?
Lets see the list of crossbows first in order for this suggestion to make sense and i will put Marksmanship requirement in brackets. All will be explained below the list:
Hunting Crossbow (1)
Light Crossbow (2)
Crossbow (3)
Heavy Crossbow (4)
Arbalest (5)

Reminder, anyone with proper strength would be able to pick it up and shoot/reload. What happens if a guy with 0 Marksmanship takes Hunting Crossbow? He does 50% damage. With 1 in Marksmanship he does full damage. Light Crossbow would deal 50% at 0 Marksmanship and 75% damage at 1 Marksmanship and 100% at 2. Crossbow would do 50% at 0, 67% at 1 and 83% at 2, ofc 100% at 3. Heavy Crossbow in a same way 50% at 0, 62.5% at 1, 75% at 2, 87.5% at 3 and 100% at 4. Arbalest would do 50% at 0, 60% at 1, 70% at 2, 80% at 3, 90% at 4 and normal damage at 5 Marksmanship.
Now what happens when u have more than required. Each point of Marksmanship over the requirement would add 5% do damage up to 20%. Having more than 4 Marksmanship over the requirement wouldn't change the damage output. Marksmanship wouldn't change the accuracy since it wouldn't affect effective wpf.

Summary:
Skill name change: Power Draw becomes Marksmanship
Marksmanship has same effect on archers (bow users) as Power Draw has now.
Marksmanship becomes secondary requirement for crossbow users if they want to do full damage or even some more.
Hybrid crossbow users can still be hybrids with the same build but they would be less effective in the ranged combat.
This suggestion opens up possibility for undoing current (silly) slot requirement for crossbows.

Numbers i presented do not need to be like this. This is my point of view and can be changed if needed.

Thoughts, suggestion?

I my opinion , and to remain realistic as possible , i don't think that ur strenght is able to change anything concerning Xbows/ bolts damages, nevertheless i think its fair for crossbow players to have to use 5 points for xbow maniement, string pulling , reload system.
So to be realistic we can allowed each one to pick a crossbow(respecting strengh difficulty) and shoot (if its loaded), neverthelless only guys with good needed skill point in xbow maniement will be able to reload, that my point of  view .

[maat]

I like this, except that Power Draw shouldn't be replaced with Markmanship. Markmanship should be a whole new skill.

yeah , i dont wanna see a xbowman drop his Arbalest to pick Horn bow one the floor... =P

[Necrorave]

I understand where this post is coming from, although I really think adding a skill for xbows would only kill the point of getting xbows.

The point of a crossbow is the ability to use it no matter what you are, I understand that a lot of people are annoyed with the amount of people that use xbows without points spent in it.  Although, I am annoyed with the amount of 2h users.  "So what?" is your response I assume?  Well there ya go.

I understood the need to make xbows use up more slots, fair enough.  Although, I really think making a skill would kill xbows in general.  If points are going to spent on it you might as well be an archer.

Sure, you can use the "Xbow men can hold shots as long as they want" excuse, although people seem to forget that if they miss a shot and are being charged or shot at, they are screwed.

Do not screw them even more by slowing them down.  If anything, lower the weight of archer equipment back a bit to make it more of a even flow for ranged.  Leave xbows as they are now, if anything give us a reason to use a light xbow over a regular one on foot.

Not saying this is a bad system, I just think it will cause problems.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this, if you think about it.  This will make 1-shot Arbalesters incredibly bountiful and only make people complain more about it.

[DaveUKR]

I'll try to make it short, but it'll be hard. Reasons why your suggestion is good are obvious and written by you so I'll give reasons why it's not the best.

1. One of the reasons crossbows are still not changed is that if you change anything in requirements, then you'll waste builds of the whole class so they'll need to either respec or retire. So it's only good when there is a big patch where everyone is allowed to retire.
2. It's very difficult to implement codewise if not impossible.
3. Such bonuses will make arbalest OP as it will have the biggest damage output. Lvl33: 15-24 build, 5PS, 2IF, 8ATH, 8WM, 9MS, 174wpf. MWarba+steel bolts=120 pierce damage, will 1shot a lot more often, archers will die in 1shot no matter what, good game.


What I suggest is easier to implement and will be less balance breaking.
1. Rebalanced stats
2. WPF requirement to reload crossbow based on effective wpf x difficulty. According to new stats you'll need 64 wpf to reload hunting crossbow (you'll be able to use it on lvl5 already once you get 8 strength and 1 WM), 80 wpf for LC, 96 for C, 112 for HC and 128 for Arba. Don't forget it's effective wpf, so basically, you won't be able to reload with low wpf and good armour, you'll have to sacrifice something. Also requirements of HC and Arba will force to make decisions to either have a gimped build (they can't be divided by 3) or have more strength but less agility. More strength => better build, more PS, more heath; more agility => gimped build, more speed/ath, more wpf/wm.

Here are stats. Old and new:
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Don't want to make this post ultrahuge, so I'll give reasons to such stats in the other time.

[En_Dotter]

I'll try to make it short, but it'll be hard. Reasons why your suggestion is good are obvious and written by you so I'll give reasons why it's not the best.

(click to show/hide)

1. One of the reasons crossbows are still not changed is that if you change anything in requirements, then you'll waste builds of the whole class so they'll need to either respec or retire. So it's only good when there is a big patch where everyone is allowed to retire.
2. It's very difficult to implement codewise if not impossible.
3. Such bonuses will make arbalest OP as it will have the biggest damage output. Lvl33: 15-24 build, 5PS, 2IF, 8ATH, 8WM, 9MS, 174wpf. MWarba+steel bolts=120 pierce damage, will 1shot a lot more often, archers will die in 1shot no matter what, good game.


What I suggest is easier to implement and will be less balance breaking.
1. Rebalanced stats
2. WPF requirement to reload crossbow based on effective wpf x difficulty. According to new stats you'll need 64 wpf to reload hunting crossbow (you'll be able to use it on lvl5 already once you get 8 strength and 1 WM), 80 wpf for LC, 96 for C, 112 for HC and 128 for Arba. Don't forget it's effective wpf, so basically, you won't be able to reload with low wpf and good armour, you'll have to sacrifice something. Also requirements of HC and Arba will force to make decisions to either have a gimped build (they can't be divided by 3) or have more strength but less agility. More strength => better build, more PS, more heath; more agility => gimped build, more speed/ath, more wpf/wm.

Here are stats. Old and new:
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Don't want to make this post ultrahuge, so I'll give reasons to such stats in the other time.

Im not sure if u know where this is coming from but i will try to say all i can think of.
This isnt a post saying archery has PD as requirement so xbows must have it or something similar. Shields shouldnt have skill requirement to pick them up, als thrown weapons shoulnt. Tell me if u know a single person who couldnt put his arms around grips for the shield and hold it? Tell me if u know one person who doesnt know how to throw a stick (spear, javelin...), or to pull a string on a bow. I would remove those requirements and make current skills (Shield and Power Throw) and Power Draw) do the similar effect crossbows have in my suggestion.
This suggestion represents the training of a soldier to use one weapon more efficiently. Current game only allows melee weapons to be used by all and xbows. It doesnt make sense compared to other game features.
This would give dedicated xbow users more power and i feel its a good thing. Crossbows are meant to be so called owerpowerd. After all they should pierce almost any armor. Yes, hybrids will suffer again but this suggestion really opens up possibility to revert stupid 2 slot nerf.

Someone said that Marksmanship should be separate skill and it seems i totally forgot that bowmen and crossbowmen would be able to use each others weapons... So ye i suppose a new skill would be better...

[DaveUKR]

Im not sure if u know where this is coming from but i will try to say all i can think of.
This isnt a post saying archery has PD as requirement so xbows must have it or something similar. Shields shouldnt have skill requirement to pick them up, als thrown weapons shoulnt. Tell me if u know a single person who couldnt put his arms around grips for the shield and hold it? Tell me if u know one person who doesnt know how to throw a stick (spear, javelin...), or to pull a string on a bow. I would remove those requirements and make current skills (Shield and Power Throw) and Power Draw) do the similar effect crossbows have in my suggestion.
This suggestion represents the training of a soldier to use one weapon more efficiently. Current game only allows melee weapons to be used by all and xbows. It doesnt make sense compared to other game features.
This would give dedicated xbow users more power and i feel its a good thing. Crossbows are meant to be so called owerpowerd. After all they should pierce almost any armor. Yes, hybrids will suffer again but this suggestion really opens up possibility to revert stupid 2 slot nerf.

Someone said that Marksmanship should be separate skill and it seems i totally forgot that bowmen and crossbowmen would be able to use each others weapons... So ye i suppose a new skill would be better...

I clearly understand what you suggest and I agree with most of it, but if you speak about realism: how would your skill define the power of the crossbow? It's the same as making different damage to the guns depending on the skill. Also I doubt it's possible to add new skills, it's hardcoded.

[Nightingale]

(click to show/hide)

I'll try to make it short, but it'll be hard. Reasons why your suggestion is good are obvious and written by you so I'll give reasons why it's not the best.

1. One of the reasons crossbows are still not changed is that if you change anything in requirements, then you'll waste builds of the whole class so they'll need to either respec or retire. So it's only good when there is a big patch where everyone is allowed to retire.
2. It's very difficult to implement codewise if not impossible.
3. Such bonuses will make arbalest OP as it will have the biggest damage output. Lvl33: 15-24 build, 5PS, 2IF, 8ATH, 8WM, 9MS, 174wpf. MWarba+steel bolts=120 pierce damage, will 1shot a lot more often, archers will die in 1shot no matter what, good game.


What I suggest is easier to implement and will be less balance breaking.
1. Rebalanced stats
2. WPF requirement to reload crossbow based on effective wpf x difficulty. According to new stats you'll need 64 wpf to reload hunting crossbow (you'll be able to use it on lvl5 already once you get 8 strength and 1 WM), 80 wpf for LC, 96 for C, 112 for HC and 128 for Arba. Don't forget it's effective wpf, so basically, you won't be able to reload with low wpf and good armour, you'll have to sacrifice something. Also requirements of HC and Arba will force to make decisions to either have a gimped build (they can't be divided by 3) or have more strength but less agility. More strength => better build, more PS, more heath; more agility => gimped build, more speed/ath, more wpf/wm.

Here are stats. Old and new:
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Don't want to make this post ultrahuge, so I'll give reasons to such stats in the other time.

I am not exactly sure if I followed you completely.

Your Heavy Crossbow compared to Your Arbalest
-10 damage
-4 Missile Speed
+21 Reload speed
-2 strength requirement
-2 Accuracy
-1.5 weight

I want to explain why I highlighted the damage and accuracy Yellow- because I don't really think 10 damage or 2 accuracy makes that big of a difference.

I have used both Heavy and Arbalest - I already think the heavy is superior, I am sure you have used both as well. My reasoning for believing this way is: I would still have to shoot that guy in plate 3 times, I would still have to shoot that archer twice, the 10 damage difference is really nothing if you look at it from the point of few how many times you have to shoot the guy for him to go down.

I feel the same way about the accuracy, 87-89? I don't think that is a huge difference.
There is little if not any reason to choose the arbalest over the heavy if you had your way, not to mention it would be just under what the arbalest costs now and you would be making the arbalest cost nearly 3500 more gold.

Pure Heavy build at lvl 30 :
14-27
9 ath 9 wm 180 wpf in xbow.

Pure Arbalest build at lvl 30:
16-27
6 ath 9 wm 180 in xbow

You tell me which is better? -3 athletics for more weight, more cost, way slower, faster missile speed. All so I can shoot that same guy the same amount of times.

[En_Dotter]

I clearly understand what you suggest and I agree with most of it, but if you speak about realism: how would your skill define the power of the crossbow? It's the same as making different damage to the guns depending on the skill.

I can try to explain, and that doesnt mean i am correct. Lets say i take a rifle in my hands and you do it. You are a trained sharpshooter and im just a guy who picked up a rifle from the floor. We can both agree that we are able to kill someone. But lets say we both aim for the heart of a target. I can say that you will most probably hit it. While i might just pierce the lung or hit his guts, or even his arm since im quite unskilled with that weapon. Your shot will be fatal, while mine could be fatal but not at that exact moment. In cRPG we dont have bleeding as a factor or something similar. We have damage dealt to a target. I assume certain skills (like PD, PT and PS, at one point hopefully Marksmanship) and weapon proficiency are replacements for those real life situations. Im not much talking about realism here to be honest, just trying to understand game mechanics and then approximate them to weapon usage represented in real life. Those 2 statements might be one against other but while ppl try to project realism into games i try to project game into realism and try to understand it better.
By reducing the damage with inadequate Sharpshooter skill we bring some "realism" to game, or at least i think of it. I also think that crossbows (at least high tier ones) should be able to devastate tincans, since bolts actually pierce through plate armor (unlike arrows). That is the 2nd part of my suggestion - buffing the xbow damage for dedicated crossbowmen. I know this might be somewhat OP but i am prepared to live with it. After all im 1-2 shots from arbalest anyway and im not whining about that weapon being op, i just whine about the amount of annoyance it produced .

Also I doubt it's possible to add new skills, it's hardcoded.

I have no idea about that. Im not a programer but i have seen skill foraging in Floris Mod Pack. I am not sure if he added a new skill or replaced an old one.

[DaveUKR]

I am not exactly sure if I followed you completely.

Your Heavy Crossbow compared to Your Arbalest
-10 damage
-4 Missile Speed
+21 Reload speed
-2 strength requirement
-2 Accuracy
-1.5 weight

I want to explain why I highlighted the damage and accuracy Yellow- because I don't really think 10 damage or 2 accuracy makes that big of a difference.

I have used both Heavy and Arbalest - I already think the heavy is superior, I am sure you have used both as well. My reasoning for believing this way is: I would still have to shoot that guy in plate 3 times, I would still have to shoot that archer twice, the 10 damage difference is really nothing if you look at it from the point of few how many times you have to shoot the guy for him to go down.

I feel the same way about the accuracy, 87-89? I don't think that is a huge difference.
There is little if not any reason to choose the arbalest over the heavy if you had your way, not to mention it would be just under what the arbalest costs now and you would be making the arbalest cost nearly 3500 more gold.

Pure Heavy build at lvl 30 :
14-27
9 ath 9 wm 180 wpf in xbow.

Pure Arbalest build at lvl 30:
16-27
6 ath 9 wm 180 in xbow

You tell me which is better? -3 athletics for more weight, more cost, way slower, faster missile speed. All so I can shoot that same guy the same amount of times.

Okay, now compare my changes in Arba and Heavy. So basically HC got nerfed significantly more than Arba

Arba
-3 speed
+1 req
+4.2 weight
+3506 price (+19%)

HC
-9 speed
+2 req
+3 weight
-1 accuracy
+4343 price (+32%)
+1 damage

I can try to explain, and that doesnt mean i am correct. Lets say i take a rifle in my hands and you do it. You are a trained sharpshooter and im just a guy who picked up a rifle from the floor. We can both agree that we are able to kill someone. But lets say we both aim for the heart of a target. I can say that you will most probably hit it. While i might just pierce the lung or hit his guts, or even his arm since im quite unskilled with that weapon. Your shot will be fatal, while mine could be fatal but not at that exact moment. In cRPG we dont have bleeding as a factor or something similar. We have damage dealt to a target. I assume certain skills (like PD, PT and PS, at one point hopefully Marksmanship) and weapon proficiency are replacements for those real life situations. Im not much talking about realism here to be honest, just trying to understand game mechanics and then approximate them to weapon usage represented in real life. Those 2 statements might be one against other but while ppl try to project realism into games i try to project game into realism and try to understand it better.
By reducing the damage with inadequate Sharpshooter skill we bring some "realism" to game, or at least i think of it. I also think that crossbows (at least high tier ones) should be able to devastate tincans, since bolts actually pierce through plate armor (unlike arrows). That is the 2nd part of my suggestion - buffing the xbow damage for dedicated crossbowmen. I know this might be somewhat OP but i am prepared to live with it. After all im 1-2 shots from arbalest anyway and im not whining about that weapon being op, i just whine about the amount of annoyance it produced .

I have no idea about that. Im not a programer but i have seen skill foraging in Floris Mod Pack. I am not sure if he added a new skill or replaced an old one.

If you're speaking about fatal damage which is not anything realistic I'd say because you can aim good but still it doesn't depend on how good you aim, it depends on what you hit. Why can't a badplayer make a random shot to make the same damage output?

[Rumblood]

If you're speaking about fatal damage which is not anything realistic I'd say because you can aim good but still it doesn't depend on how good you aim, it depends on what you hit. Why can't a badplayer make a random shot to make the same damage output?

Because realism has nothing to do with this game.