Author Topic: Nerf HX  (Read 7082 times)

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Offline Strudog

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2013, 02:35:52 pm »
0
Just did a test with Latvian on eu3,

Fully Loomed HA took 15 shots to kill him
Non-Loomed HX took 7 shots

I wouldn't mind the HX having more damage than the HA but that's just absurd

Just saids it all
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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2013, 02:36:31 pm »
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Harder than thrower? Or any troll class like 9/30 ninja or 3/39 rondel my old friend?

9/30 Ninja hard? You got to be kidding, right? I always saw it as a very easy class! 3/39 rondel is hard, yes, but could do quite well myself (did 3/36 with WM as well, no shield)

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Well, on paper it's definitely weaker, though I always found the higher RoF a big plus. I had approximately the same kdr as an unloomed HX (7/30) as I did with an unloomed HA (15/24) though. However, I guess an accuracy increase for HAs would be nice. I also believe the ground ranged should have an accuracy increase as well, which could put some more pressure on the horse ranged again. :P
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Offline Molly

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2013, 03:07:03 pm »
+1
Well Gurni, guess you're just super-awesome at everything. Us puny peasant players just don't reach you at any point.

Doesn't make the problem go away, does it?

Besides, from my point of view HX or HA are not even supposed to carry a team. They are support classes. The core of the whole game simply is melee and melee cav. That's the element where warband shines compared to any other game...
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2013, 03:17:08 pm »
+2
How can you say that HX/HA are supporter classes? Why can't they carry the team? Why can't anything else than melee be good at solo play? Why must the infantry be the core of the game and not the archers? Who is saying that murder is not legal? Who says that you got to pay taxes while being a citizen? Why do people pray to a God? Why do other people not believe in a God? Why do you get drunk if you drink too much alcohol?

That are real questions. While I hate HX, I can't agree that the infantry are the only ones who are carrying the team. It's not all about them. Archers and Cav are part of the game as well, as any mounted range is.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2013, 03:33:07 pm »
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How can you say that HX/HA are supporter classes? Why can't they carry the team? Why can't anything else than melee be good at solo play? Why must the infantry be the core of the game and not the archers? Who is saying that murder is not legal? Who says that you got to pay taxes while being a citizen? Why do people pray to a God? Why do other people not believe in a God? Why do you get drunk if you drink too much alcohol?

That are real questions. While I hate HX, I can't agree that the infantry are the only ones who are carrying the team. It's not all about them. Archers and Cav are part of the game as well, as any mounted range is.
While they are part of the game, their gameplay is everything but as unique as the melee-part. Why would you start playing Warband? Surely not for the pew pew but for swinging mighty swords... The 4 axes attacking and blocking is the unique part. Not aiming with a crosshair - and to get the cliché in: go and play CoD if you wanna shoot people all day.
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2013, 03:34:39 pm »
+1
That's not making sense.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2013, 03:36:58 pm »
+1
Yes, it does.
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Offline Spa_geh_tea

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2013, 03:43:39 pm »
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It is annoying getting attacked with no way to fight back. That is why all the range nerfs occur.

End of conversation right there.

Solution? Play siege, they can't kite forever ;)

Offline bruce

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2013, 04:57:44 pm »
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Besides, from my point of view HX or HA are not even supposed to carry a team. They are support classes.

The exact sentiment is the reason why ranged was nerfed repeatedly, archers in particular; melee infantry and melee cavalry are supposed to (Paul stated it explicitly) win matches, while (mounted) ranged are support classes (which contribute, but don't "carry" the team).

Important, but support classes. However, the crux of the matter is that it's easier to play HX then any other mounted ranged class (HA or HT), it is more effective then any of these, and is quite easy to do well with them overall. HX shouldn't be removed; either the counters to HX need buffing (by which I mean, ranged effectiveness vs horses), or it needs a nerf. It's far easier to play it then it used to be (I was the first HX on EU servers after the wipe, it was far, far harder back then; I sold my HX gear because playing a HX - especially on a good horse - now is like playing a HA in the old days of broken archery).
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2013, 05:05:54 pm »
+3
I don't know what the fuck happened with the cav metagame, but when more than half of all cav in a server on peaktime are HX you can tell something is wrong. Rohypnol for example is a good player, but he's apparently a good player regardless of class. What grinds my goat is the relentlessly terrible cunts who play HX because it is the lowest risk class in the entire game (since HA got nerfed into the ground). It's hard to contribute decisively (i.e carrying a team) as an HX, but it's still an incredible force multiplier for the people who would be utterly worthless at anything else. May not be the easiest class to get kills with, but it's by far the easiest class to survive an entire round with. Practically every round peaktime ends with an entire team dead except for the 2-5 HX's that take ~3 mins to mop up, having refused to put themselves into any kind of dangerous situation the entire round. Never seen so many MOTF as these days.
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Offline Spa_geh_tea

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2013, 05:13:01 pm »
+3
Boycott battle mode!!!!!!!
 
Give them nothing to shoot at!!!!!

Change the objective!!!!

Hate the playa!!!!!

Play siege only!!!!

Do not support deuschbaggery!!!!

Play siege only!!!!!

Offline Angellore

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2013, 07:00:00 pm »
+1
I understand HX/HA is annoying class, especially for 2h/pole. But you guys are simply overacting.

Firstly, I agree HA is very weak class at the moment. Only HA build worth considering is 18/24, high level (at least 33), Yumi +3, Bodkins +3. And that's the build I will go next with my future HA. I'm sure damage of this HA build will be similar or even higher than HX damage. At the moment HA Horn Bow 15/24 build is just too weak to go for. So, the problem with HA is, it requires high level to be effective. Meantime HX is much easier to build, level 30 is perfectly fine for HX.

For people who claims HX is effective on foot and on horse. You can't be both accurate on range and good in melee. Chosing 7/30 or 9/30 build makes you useless in melee. My level 30 HX (9/30) has 0 PS, 0 ATH and 1 WPF. This means I always bounce, so when my horse dies, i'm dead too. This build makes me however accurate on range. If you go 12/27 or 15/24 you can wear a bit better armor, put some PS, but you won't be as accuracte. If you want to kill archers/crossbowmans/other HX, you have to go accurate build (7/30 or 9/30). If you just want to "annoy" 2h/pole you can go even 18/21. And "annoy" is the right word to use here. Because, like Strudog stated in his last post, he used 7 bolts to kill Latvian. You have to remember, you won't be 100% accurate as HX, even if half your bolts reaches target, it's fine. So you need to fire about 14 bolts to kill target like Latvian. And it's just one target, one enemy. Considering HX has 26 bolts, you could kill just 2 heavily armored targets during whole round. That's why there is no sense to shot heavily armored targets as HX (not only players, but horses as well).

From my experience, with my equipment (Light Xbow +3, Steel Bolts +3), I need 2-3 bolts to kill lightly armored horses like Arabian Warhorse (if I hit it of course - this horse is so unpredictable, it's not easy to hit it in first place). Medium armored horses like Destrier dies from 4-5 bolts. It's better to leave heavily armored horses alone, since I would waste too many bolts trying to take them down. I'm not counting head hits here, but they of course can help you to kill enemy horse much faster.

As for players. I need 2-3 hits to kill lightly armored targets (archers/xbowmans/ninjas etc). Medium armored players dies from 3-4 hits, heavily armored from 5-6. Same time enemy crossbowmans kills me from just 1 bolt, enemy archers can kill me from 1 arrow too if they are lucky. HX is very fragile class, at least 7/30 and 9/30 builds are. This of course makes sense, I resigned from melee and defence in favor of accuracy by having 9/30 build.

Decreasing HX accuracy will result HX going for easier targets (2h/pole). Right now many HX goes for enemy archers/crossbowmans/horses, because those are main HX threats (also they use light armor in most cases). I focus enemy infantry only when I see none of these targets around. So in some way, HX is doing good job to keep enemy ranged/horses away from his team. Without accuracy I would just stay away from enemy ranged (I would still go for enemy horses thou), so more enemy ranged will focus my team, being completely unthreaten by anyone.

I also don't agree that 2h/pole can do nothing but die seeing HX. You can invest in throwing and take down HX horse, you can invest in shield and protect yourself from bolts, you can avoid bolts with huge success rate, you also can hide, wait for flags and make enemy HX useless. I don't understand what infantry expects, staying open ground, being surrounded by 3-4 HX. If you do that, you SHOULD die, because that's your tactical mistake. I understand there are some open ground maps on the server, where you can't hide, but you have to remember there are also town maps or maps where HX is completely useless, and I never saw HX crying to take that map off the server. If you don't want to play on open ground map, just don't do that.

Yeah, HX is lowest risk class, especially if you keep distance from all threats, but just think a while about that. If HX is staying alive longest in most rounds and still not doing amazing scores, how is it OP? When I have great round, I can hit enemies with ~15 bolts of my 26. And still, by hitting enemies so many times I can have 3-5 kills per round. All that considering it will be indeed great round for me! So I don't really understand how can people claim HX damage is too huge. Any other class can get more kills pretty easily. Look how many enemies 1h cav kills every round. It's because they are choosing weakest targets you say. But many HX are chosing weakest targets too, and they aren't even close as effective in battle. So even staying longer don't make you OP if your damage is so low as it is now. Yesterday I had more than 10 hits in single round and no kills - it's nothing strange about HX, happens pretty often. That's good enough reason to say HX really IS support class, and nothing more than support class. HX is a class mainly to help taking down enemy horses and keeping enemy ranged busy. Sure this class is annoying because of it's inaccessibility (for not ranged classes), but that's the only true strength of HX. The "problem" with HX is, rounds lasts longer than usual because of them. But the enemy will most likely win the game by flags anyway, so HX survivability don't change anything here.

Offline Overdriven

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2013, 07:58:18 pm »
+2
While they are part of the game, their gameplay is everything but as unique as the melee-part. Why would you start playing Warband? Surely not for the pew pew but for swinging mighty swords... The 4 axes attacking and blocking is the unique part. Not aiming with a crosshair - and to get the cliché in: go and play CoD if you wanna shoot people all day.

Name me another decent game where I can sit on a damn horse and fire arrows from a bow in that style of gameplay.

If anything the fact that games like Chivalry and WotR are around means the melee is LESS unique than the horse ranged for sure.

Just did a test with Latvian on eu3,

Fully Loomed HA took 15 shots to kill him
Non-Loomed HX took 7 shots

I wouldn't mind the HX having more damage than the HA but that's just absurd

Just saids it all

Needs more attention.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 08:01:33 pm by Overdriven »

Offline Miwiw

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2013, 08:07:00 pm »
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It was possible in WotR and I enjoyed being on Horse with a Bow, but then they screwed up and removed it.  :cry:
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Nerf HX
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2013, 08:11:23 pm »
+1
Ah I only played the beta and didn't think it was possible then.

But regardless it's very unique to this game.