two suggestions

[Tomas]

Some responses to comments

1) Yes, playing a tank (Plated Charger + Plate Armour) is impossible. So what? If its unfair to let someone use this all the time, then why let them use it at all.  We can't use Great Maul + Pike combos yet this is accepted.  Why then is it fair to limit some OP weapon combinations all the time yet completely unfair to limit vastly more OP armour/horse/weapon combos?

2) A lot is still possible under the proposal.  Charger + Heavy Kuyak + Heavy Lance + Broad Short Sword for example takes up 4 slots.  That seems like a good pure cav set up to me.  If you want a better backup weapon or better armour then take a lighter horse.

3) Allowing 8 slots instead of just 4 and then adjusting item slot usage would allow for a more flexible system without having to use 0.5 slots for anything.  Just a bit neater than a 1.5 slot bastard sword which would be 3 slots instead.  Otherwise a good idea though as it re-introduces the variation which would be lost by removing upkeep.

4) With the right balance i would support buying slots for skills.  Not sure on where I would put the balance - 2 skill points equal to 1 slot perhaps?

5) I am a crossbow user myself and have been for a very long time.  The very fact that people's objections to this boil down to them no longer automatically seeing the Arbalest as the best choice for a foot xbowman show it needs changing imo.  The best weapons need stat trade-offs to balance them. Money/upkeep just doesn't work since you can make it in other ways.

[Jarlek]

As one who always wanted to expand the slot system, I only got one thing to say:
wtf are you smoking and why aren't you sharing?

[Gurnisson]

I am a crossbow user myself and have been for a very long time.  The very fact that people's objections to this boil down to them no longer automatically seeing the Arbalest as the best choice for a foot xbowman show it needs changing imo.  The best weapons need stat trade-offs to balance them. Money/upkeep just doesn't work since you can make it in other ways.

Arbalest ain't the best xbow nowadays either. Heavy Xbow outshines it already, and your suggestion would just make the arbalest even worse.

[Nightingale]

Arbalest ain't the best xbow nowadays either. Heavy Xbow outshines it already, and your suggestion would just make the arbalest even worse.

I have to agree with this guy. Heavy crossbow reloads much faster, its less damage isn't really that noticeable for the user, since you still have to shoot that archer 2 times, or that guy in full plate 4 times. Its accuracy is almost the same hardly noticeable. Its weight is less, making you faster. Only 12 strength requirement meaning even less strength and more agility for WM(and athletics)- which imo makes up for the less accuracy.

[bruce]

I actually do think armoured horses are, well, too good.

However it's fairer to say "let's remove them" then do something like this, and return people their loompoints. Upkeep clearly doesn't work, and I agree. However, doing this is tantamount to deleting all builds for armoured horses except the obviously undesirable ones (10 riding, 10 shield skill LLJK style +3 plated charger for trampling people with shield up and wearing a wedding dress, if you remember that particular character). If you want to say "delete armoured horses" then say it openly.

And no, the listed example you gave is 6 slots. Read your own proposal (2 slots charger, 2 slots kuyak, 2 slots heavy lance).

[DUKE DICKBUTT]

Horses are already astronomically expensive and require unique skill.  Most players would actually do better with 20-40k more in weapons and armor and their points distributed elsewhere.  We don't need to gimp cavalry any further.

[bruce]

Well true if upkeep was like that but I see plated people on plated chargers with top of the line weapons who don't give a toss, playing round after round ;P

I realize they must grind / trade / spend accumulated money to do this, but still. Upkeep didn't work out the way people hoped it would when it was introduced.

[Tomas]

And no, the listed example you gave is 6 slots. Read your own proposal (2 slots charger, 2 slots kuyak, 2 slots heavy lance).

Super Heavy Armours (55-60BA) = 3 slots
Heavy Armours (50-54BA) = 2 slots
MediumHeavy Armours (45-49BA) = 1 slots
All other Armours = 0 slots

Heavy Kuyak = 44BA = 0slots

[Jarlek]

Heavy Kuyak = 44BA = 0slots

Oh, so make the medium armours even MORE efficient than they are now?

Genious!

[zagibu]

I think the Kuyaks should actually add to available slots, because they have a belt pouch! History has proven that such belt pouches often contained secondary weapons like great mauls or throwing lances.

[Tomas]

Oh, so make the medium armours even MORE efficient than they are now?

Genious!

2 things

1) Why on earth would you want to dissuade people from wearing medium armour?
2) If your measure of efficiency is armour to weight ratio then the Shirt is the most efficient armour.  Are you saying that's OP at 0 slots too?

Armour to weight ratio is a sensible way of comparing similar level armours, it has very little bearing on overall armour balance in the game.

[Gurnisson]

2 things

1) Why on earth would you want to dissuade people from wearing medium armour?
2) If your measure of efficiency is armour to weight ratio then the Shirt is the most efficient armour.  Are you saying that's OP at 0 slots too?

Armour to weight ratio is a sensible way of comparing similar level armours, it has very little bearing on overall armour balance in the game.

Kuyak 0 slots
Plate 3 slots

What's most effective out of those two? It's not the plate, that's for sure.

[Tomas]

Kuyak 0 slots
Plate 3 slots

What's most effective out of those two? It's not the plate, that's for sure.

That depends on what else you want to use.  If all you want to do is run around with a Mace or a Warhammer then for a lot of players the Plate is more effective.

[Jarlek]

That depends on what else you want to use.  If all you want to do is run around with a Mace or a Warhammer then for a lot of players the Plate is more effective.

What.... what game are you playing?

[Tomas]

What.... what game are you playing?

So you are saying that if upkeep didn't exist, you and every other player in cRPG, would ALWAYS choose a Great Maul/Pronoia Armour/Wisby Gauntlet/Mail Chausses/Barbutte combination over a combination of the Warhammer/Milanese Plate/Heavy Gauntlet/Cased Greaves/Weimar Helmet (ignoring style ofc).

Personally I at least would stop and think whether I want the 16 extra BA, 10 extra HA and 13 extra FA, or if i prefer the 12 extra damage.  It would depend on my build and style of play.  I think a lot of other people would also stop and think too, but remember the slots and item stats can always be adjusted for better balance if it turns out that everybody does go for the same option.  The whole point is that this introduces a proper trade-off system across all equipment usage. The exact balance and nature of that system once introduced can be endlessly adjusted for optimization.