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Was the pike's nerfs excessive?

Yes
14 (23.7%)
No
45 (76.3%)

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Author Topic: Pike Overnerfed  (Read 2083 times)

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Offline Seawied

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Pike Overnerfed
« on: May 02, 2011, 08:47:58 am »
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Despite the removal of cavalry's 360 degree turret style pokes, cavalry will soon be the strongest builds in the game.

Its not that cavalry have any sort of item or horse which is instant win, its that their main counter was overnerfed.

In this patch, the pike received a number of changes, including significant damage reduction on heirloomed versions of the weapon.

The nerfs that cause problems with the overall balance of the game are as follows
#1 The pike now takes up 2 slots, instead of 1.
#2 The pike must be equipped at all times or it is dropped to the ground.


The purpose to these nerfs is to force players to specialize more and not be a swiss-army knife. While I support the idea of forcing players to choose what they need to rely on their teammates for, using both of these nerfs on the same item was a bad idea. Why?

Because either one of these nerfs by itself would have been sufficient to attain the goal of the patch.

If a pike takes up 2 slots, the player will be forced to pick between a real melee weapon, or be an archer/crossbower who is nearly completely unable to fend for themselves if they are cornered.

If you must equip the pike at all times, you are unable to lure a skilled cavalry player to attack a seemingly helpless person in the field. Additionally, by having the pike out at all times, you are forcing the piker to be very vulnerable to anyone who can facehug effectively, as well as having the piker exposed to any number of missile attacks.

The end result of each of these: a player who uses the pike is most likely going to be effective at killing a horse, but notably ineffective in many other situations. However, when you use both of these together, you have a player whose only strength is killing a horse.

If the piker is pressured in melee under the current system, the player has to drop their pike and draw out their melee weapon to fight off the opponent. Because most battles involve kiting and footwork, the player will, in most cases, be separated from their 2 slot weapon. Once this occurs, they are now much less effective at fighting off cavalry.

Cavalry had a counter, and the aforementioned counter was not considered by the greater crpg community to be overpowered. By adding BOTH of these nerfs to the pike, you have made the pike significantly less effective at doing its singular job. I strongly urge you to remove one of the two mentioned nerfs in this post, or, if my predictions are correct, the sheer number of cavalry characters will overwhelm crpg.




tl;dr version-
By making the pike take up 2 slots, and forcing the player to drop the pike if they change weapons, pikers are now crippled against melee, archers, crossbowers, and throwers, thereby making pikers less common. This will in-turn make cavalry more powerful and more common.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 08:52:06 am by Seawied »
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline ThePoopy

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2011, 09:27:47 am »
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i have no idea what excessive means but i voted no couse its not overnerfed

Offline NuberT

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2011, 10:20:03 am »
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I have a mw pike and I say its fine as it is.

Offline Cyclopsided

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2011, 10:42:06 am »
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If a pike takes up 2 slots, the player will be forced to pick between a real melee weapon
Your post had the last nail put in it's coffin with this line.
I'm a pikeman and I am loving this patch so much. I have literally not had a KDR less than one since the patch while using a pike. I was topping the score boards all night.

Maybe you should try it before claiming that it is bad? It is amazing. If you are expecting pikemen to be catch-all kill everything by themselves solo men don't post again. nobody is that and nobody ever should be. Pikemen are amazing when used in teamwork. Ever heard of it?


On the notion of cavalry being OP by pike being nerfed [lol what??]
If there is a pikeman, EVERYBODY within 10 feet of him is completely and utterly safe from cav.

p.s. Long pike got added too. It can't even be used in 1v1 but man does it shine in formation play.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 10:44:56 am by Marathon »
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Offline Magikarp

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2011, 11:49:52 am »
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Newsflash: Cav got nerfed by doing the exact same thing, on top of that got a speed nerf, damage nerf and heirloom nerf.
Don't mind the fish.

Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2011, 12:27:07 pm »
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Quote
If a pike takes up 2 slots, the player will be forced to pick between a real melee weapon, or be an archer/crossbower who is nearly completely unable to fend for themselves if they are cornered.
How is that? He still has two free slots for a real footman's weapon. He has the option to jettison the pike and go melee, or keep the pike and repel cavs or do a support role stabbing around his melee friends. Even if he dropped the pike to pull out the 2H or 1H+shield, he can still pick it up later, can't he?

While the pocket pike trick to lure cavs close is fun, it is not really fair is it? and I say it as a cav hater.

Offline OoberNoob

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2011, 01:26:58 pm »
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I play as both cav and pikemen about the same amount and Ive noticed as calvary its real easy to just wait about a minute after the match starts before running in, by then all of the pikemen have usually dropped their pikes and engaged in melee with infantry, then its real easy just to go around and pick off whoever is on the edges and sometimes just charging headlong into a group without taking any damage due to the lack of long pointy sticks. 

But while playing as a pikeman I have only encountered 1 match where i didnt have my pike when i needed it.  When i carry a pike I leave the enemy infantry alone for the most part, and I dont drop the pike until im pretty sure that all enemy horses are dead.   Unfortunately, if you do need your pike and you have already dropped it, its a problem because usually the enemy cav wont get close enough to hit with your regular weapon so all you can do is down block and frantically search for your pike until you are bumped to death 5 FEET AWAY FROM IT!    :mad: 

Offline Cyclopsided

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2011, 01:31:03 pm »
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Try using the pike in infantry fights. That is 90% of my pike kills. Helping teammates out. usually just an assist, but lots and lots of kills too.
Sure it is pretty bad if you are 1 v 1, but that means the rest of your team is dead. (Or you are doing it wrong.)

For the record, my pikemen have never carried a side arm, but if needed they can easily grab any sheathable 2 slot pole arm to use. Like a bec, a hafted blade, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Really there is no issue.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 01:32:30 pm by Marathon »
Also, I have declared myself #1 NA hybrid thrower
Formerly known as Marathon.
As an NA admin, I am the most laid back and concerned with the ~fun of the game~ above all other factors. I've also been super inactive since Summer 2012. University takes most of my time, but I still find some time to play when i can.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2011, 01:48:15 pm »
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A few things :

The nerf on heirlooms nerfed everybody. A big part of heavy lances are masterworked nowadays, so they were nerfed the same way as pike with the heirloom nerf.

On the 2 slot and drop thing, it is true but devs had to be coherent with the rest of the changes. Now pikers can have the long pike, with really is enormous. Staying in a shielder group will grant pikers a significant advantage, either with protecting against cav, either in group vs group melee, where the long pike can poke like mad.

There were pure pikers prepatch, now there still will be.

I think piker is such a subtle and niche build that people that like it aren't likely to change. The experience with a pike is invaluable for a group of allies, so you can really spend all your rounds with it. But these elite people are really rare, which is sad. An organised clan composed of pikers, shielders and archers is solid against cav (there is nothing harder to kill than protected archery for a cav guy, trust me), range and other melees.

So I like the nerf in a way, because it favors rolling pure piker versus simply having a pike in your pocket, because it makes this ridiculous trick of taking it at the last moment (which tends to favor maneuvrable horses even more than they already are) harder (you can still pick it on the ground).


I can also pretty much bet on the fact that a group only composed of long pikes can win vs a pure melee group, just by protecting others constantly.

Offline Cyclopsided

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2011, 01:58:19 pm »
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I can also pretty much bet on the fact that a group only composed of long pikes can win vs a pure melee group, just by protecting others constantly.
Long pikes won't be able to, regular pikes can.
I know from experience.
Long pikes can only thrust, and it is too slow and low damage for such a thing. Regular pikes do fine though because BROverheads.
long pikes are for phalanxes and formations involving shielders.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 01:59:35 pm by Marathon »
Also, I have declared myself #1 NA hybrid thrower
Formerly known as Marathon.
As an NA admin, I am the most laid back and concerned with the ~fun of the game~ above all other factors. I've also been super inactive since Summer 2012. University takes most of my time, but I still find some time to play when i can.

Offline Spawny

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2011, 02:09:17 pm »
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I can also pretty much bet on the fact that a group only composed of long pikes can win vs a pure melee group, just by protecting others constantly.

We did that some time ago with regular pikes. 4-5 templars and 5 or so fallen in the same team, all armed with pikes.
If you stick together, you can mess people up badly. It's hard to block a stab and overhead at the same time.
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The problem is even if you are number 1 in NA you are still only number 467 in EU or the worst in AUS(number 17)

Offline Chagan_Arslan

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2011, 02:15:26 pm »
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overnerfed ? its like the one of the few weapons that didnt had ANY nerf stat wise


Offline MouthnHoof

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 05:16:29 pm »
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Try using the pike in infantry fights. That is 90% of my pike kills. Helping teammates out. usually just an assist, but lots and lots of kills too.
Sure it is pretty bad if you are 1 v 1, but that means the rest of your team is dead. (Or you are doing it wrong.)

For the record, my pikemen have never carried a side arm, but if needed they can easily grab any sheathable 2 slot pole arm to use. Like a bec, a hafted blade, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Really there is no issue.
That is the intended role of a pikeman.

btw, pikemen can make good use of 2H swords! use them with the alt mode and you have a reasonable sheathable polearm :)
OK, it is not as good as in 2H mode or as the better (un-sheathable) polearns, but it is more than decent for a SECONDARY weapon (a bit expensive though..). You do not really need to bring one from home. There are plenty of loomed ones lying around after a short time.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 05:17:35 pm by MouthnHoof »

Offline Punisher

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2011, 05:25:33 pm »
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Hybrids were nerfed, not the Pike. It's stats are the same, how can you call that nerfing? Following this reasoning, except 1H every weapon was nerfed.

Offline Joxer

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Re: Pike Overnerfed
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2011, 05:53:19 pm »
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#2 The pike must be equipped at all times or it is dropped to the ground.[/b]

Ok so this explains why I cant have 2 and drop 1 at spawn. Damn you chadz. Also wtf is up with the long pike taking 3 slots? Just to make sure that you dont have room for another proper pole. Ridicilous.
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