Nerfing Horse Xbows or Buff HA

[Lennu]

Change Light Crossbow and normal Crossbow back to 1slot weapons. But also change the damage type into cut for all xbows but Heavy and Abalest. And adjust the damage/reload speed a bit to keep the lighter xbows somewhat usefull. This way we'll get our 2h/xbow hybrids back nerfed. HX won't be 2shotting tincans anymore, but intead they'll get slightly higher rate of fire + more ammo. Hunting xbow will be completely useless again. Everyone will be happy, except those who loomed hunting xbow, but they are the HX my old friends causing this problem, so nobody gives a shit about them. 

[Fuma Kotaro]

only viable xbow on horse is the light one keep the hunting xbow free
archers have more bows to use while still being effective

[Micah]

HX's are very strong against all mounted and foot classes including archers. They are a dominant class. Thats not how games should work, since there has always to be a way to effectively deal with an enemy tactic. The only way i see to counter HX are dedicated light HA's ( 5 PD, high riding + accuracy) but they are useless and overly expensive atm compared to HX.

Either buff light HA alot, to become effective again or reduce cost alot, so it will become worth using the class again. THis would even it out and remove the dominance, because light HX would still be pretty ineffective against most other classes including foot infantry.
Nerfing HX a bit shouldnt hurt too , but mainly there has to be an effective counter that does not turn our to be another dominant class.

[Gurnisson]

HX's are very effective against all mounted and foot classes including archers. They are a dominant class.

The fuck game are you playing? Go on EU1 and start dominating the server with your dominant class then. I would be interested and seeing how it goes. Also, try getting close to enemy archers and see what happens. The HX has a big disadvantage against a foot archer, I know that from experience as both a foot archer and a HX.

[Micah]

The fuck game are you playing? Go on EU1 and start dominating the server with your dominant class then. I would be interested and seeing how it goes. Also, try getting close to enemy archers and see what happens. The HX has a big disadvantage against a foot archer, I know that from experience as both a foot archer and a HX.

I must admit , that i didnt play HX yet, but considering the high projectile speed, accuracy and damage of xbows - leaving alone the advantage to avoid enemy ranged by riding away/into cover, i think HX has alot options to deal with archers too.
But its true that i haven't played the class yet...

edit: i would admitedly also  like to see (light) HA to have a purpose in the game again

[CrazyCracka420]

Horse xbows aren't dominant against the main group of foot soldiers (unless they are engaged with the enemy).  If you ride too close to the enemy horde, the archers/xbows are going to tear you up (or throwers if you get too close to infantry).  Horse Xbows are able to dominant the lone heroes running around by themselves, which makes perfect sense.  They are also able to effectively harass enemy cavalry lancers who stray too far from the main group, this also makes sense.  You also see them being "dominant" at the end of the round when the enemy has no ranged players left, and the infantry keep chasing the horse xbow around in circles, this makes sense.

As a level 33, 13th generation cavalry lancer, I can say "I'm okay" with all of this.

[Ronin]

I would not want any nerfs but I believe it is a bit odd to see horsexbowmen being the perfect ranged cavalry. That role should be only fulfilled by horse archers if we take the history into account. Nomadic warriors' ability at being strong skirmishers were not matched by the lesser used mounted xbowmens of nordic and european kingdoms.

How about this:

-Change HA into something as viable as any other class. Buff their accuracy, damage and melee capabilities, but give them an option to carry only 1 stack of arrows. That way they will be on equal terms with foot archers but will have less ammo and a bit less firing speed (HA reduces wpf).
-Make xbows not reloadable on horseback. It is not even historically accurate. If an xbowmen wishes to ride a horse they will have to dismount to reload again and therefore will have to hybridize with getting athletics to be viable on foot just in any case. That way we won't be seeing any high riding builds. Because remember xbows do not require PD and xbowmen have free points to spend on something else.

As an additional note:
-Remove the higher upkeep on archery. It is just silly and does not contribute to anything.

[bruce]

It's not accurate? It is. You use your foot. Ofc, you could not maneuver like crazy while doing this. However, what is not accurate is such light crossbows doing large amounts of armour-piercing damage.

Upkeep on archery gear needs to be reduced somewhat, I agree it's a bit crazy atm. HXs need a nerf, not being deleted from the game. Deleting classes because you don't like them is crap.

HA don't need buffing except for upkeep reduction. Buff their effectiveness and infantry gameplay becomes a nightmare, and people will just use STF HAs to troll and we will see the "nerf HA" threads again.

[Angellore]

I made STF HA char and played a bit yesterday at EU_4 and today at EU_1. My current HA KDR is Kills/Deaths: 73/39, 1.9:1.
My HX KDR is Kills/Deaths: 639/300, 2.1:1, so just slightly better (HX is reskilled, also level 30, so situation is equal for both).

HA accuracy is good enough to play well, even with this STF, level 30 char. My build is 18/21, 163 WPF in Archery, Yumi +3, Bodkins +3.
I'm using 3 packs of arrows, so I have 51 bodkins (pierce damage) in total. That's 2 times more ammo than HX has.

The damage of HA is really weak. I need to hit low armored enemy (like archers) 3 times to kill them. Killing harder targets is huge challenge, I need about 8 accurate arrows to kill heavily armored targets (I will try to do more damage tests today evening).

From my observations, it's much harder to go for enemy ranged as HA (comparing to HX), so I try to stay away from enemy ranged. I would need a bit more accuracy to go for enemy archers (18/24 build could be much better for that). Same time, going for enemy horsemans is fine, also disturbing enemy infantry is much easier because HA don't need to reload.

I'm still not used to Yumi arrow speed, which is really slow comparing to anything else (arrows drops very fast, I can't get used to that). I'm sure I will get better with some more experience.

Anyway, the class seems to be fine. It has less damage than HX, but 2 times more arrows (and i'm counting Bodkins here! It can be even more with different arrow types!). I can also shoot 3 times faster than HX do. I would love to see a bit more damage from HA, especially against low armored targets, but that would make HA far superior to HX due to more ammo and much faster shooting speed. But the class itself isn't that bad, especially I don't have any experience in HA yet, it should be better when I start playing it regularly.
I can't agree that HA is much worse than HX. It's definatelly harder class to play than HX, but it has it's advantages over it.

HA: Much faster shooting speed, much more ammo.
HX: Higher damage, a bit better accuracy (and ability to hold crossbow in ready to fire position).

If someone is interested, those are my builds (both useless in melee, both builded to be good in shooting):

(click to show/hide)

Level: 30
Health Points: 53
Weapon Proficiency Points: 5

Strength: 18
Agility: 21

Archery: 163

Riding: 7
Horse Archery: 3
Power Draw: 6
Weapon Master: 7

(click to show/hide)

Level: 30
Health Points: 44
Weapon Proficiency Points: 1

Strength: 9
Agility: 30

One Handed: 85 (as I found out it's useless with 0 PS)
Crossbow: 170

Riding: 9
Horse Archery: 5
Weapon Master: 9

(I think I would prefer 12/27 HX build now, but I don't want to reskill and lose experience again)

HA will be even better with high level (33+), while HX can't get more accuracy (accuracy increase from WPF is limited) nor damage.

[Templar_Steevee]

I heve 2 ideas how to balabce HX

1) increase str req for x-bows without changing x-bows stats. It's hillarious that ppl can draw x-bow on horse with 2 fingers. When mounted requirements for using x-bow should be at least +3 or even more, because you are drawing it holding in one hand and pulling with other one, instead of drawing it with both hands when you are on foot.

2) add skill required to use x-bows (something like Power Draw). And if that skill will have a additional % dmg added remake stats of x-bows.

[Overdriven]

Anyway, the class seems to be fine. It has less damage than HX, but 2 times more arrows (and i'm counting Bodkins here! It can be even more with different arrow types!). I can also shoot 3 times faster than HX do. I would love to see a bit more damage from HA, especially against low armored targets, but that would make HA far superior to HX due to more ammo and much faster shooting speed. But the class itself isn't that bad, especially I don't have any experience in HA yet, it should be better when I start playing it regularly.
I can't agree that HA is much worse than HX. It's definatelly harder class to play than HX, but it has it's advantages over it.

Good luck going head to head with HX as HA. The problem is whilst HA can shoot faster, the poor accuracy and low damage means that unless the HX is a complete retard, they could either kill you or your horse long before you've taken half their health. Not to mention HX can get away with wearing much more armour, increasing the gap even more. Pretty much  the same problem occurs all over the battlefield. The accuracy, damage, armour, melee capability simply does not compare to anything else on the battlefield. The two things an HA can do better are: Run away. Carry more arrows.

In my opinion that's simply not enough to consider it a viable class. I'll also mention that your KDR is only that high because you started with a stf. A normal HA has to play from level 1 and only becomes truly viable at level 30, leaving you with a horrific KDR until that point. The HX is more viable much earlier due to higher early accuracy and early constant damage, as no need for PD so once you hit 9 strength you are set.

[Sultan Eren]

Buff HA? Hell no.

[Gurnisson]

Good luck going head to head with HA as HX. The much higher RoF means that only a very bad HA will lose against a HX

ftfy

[Overdriven]

ftfy

Rate of fire is nothing if you are way out matched in damage, accuracy and armour.

[Gurnisson]

Rate of fire is nothing if you are way out matched in damage and armour.

When I was HA I chased HX to kill them. As HX I avoid HA whenever I can. Wonder why!