Nerfing Horse Xbows or Buff HA

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

Just put the light cross bow str up to 10 herp le derp, then it will level out with the HA and force people that want the speed and accuracy to go down to the less powerful hunting xbow which TBH when loomed is pretty awesome.

My two cents, as the LEAD! item balancer, LEAD DAMN IT LEAD!

[Overdriven]

An HA's rate of fire is higher than an HX.

I think you can only get off 1 extra arrow during the HX reload time. Not enough to account for HX higher damage and much higher accuracy.

Take an arbalest with 1 wpf, take a shot. Watch where it goes. Put a dot on your screen there. Now ignore the reticule and enjoy your sniper rifle. Will it vary? Sometimes, but mostly it will go right up the middle. Been there, used them in strat to kill several people at longer range than arrows will fly from a horn bow.
Arrows with 1wpf? Will hit the guy standing next to you.

Yeah in strat when the bows were to powerful and there were no hornbows I would use an Arbalest and usually keep a positive K/D 

[Overdriven]

Ah double post!

[Torben]

id say implement an effective 0slot 0wpf 0pt requiring 1ammo throwing weapon (some axe maybe), would be a general cav nerf but at least inf could hurt ranged cav.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

The light crossbow, has only 7 strength requirement leading to the most flexible builds. Imo raise strength requirements on all xbows = problem solved

[Gurnisson]

The light crossbow, has only 7 strength requirement leading to the most flexible builds. Imo raise strength requirements on all xbows = problem solved

You might think it's a good idea. That's until you see fewer extreme builds (7/30), which is the ones that dies if the wind blows in their direction, and more HX builds with more ps, if, armor and a good sidearm, which is a way more annoying and effective kind of HX.

[Miwiw]

Those with sidearms and PS/IF and more STR are the better players. The other HX are just trolls, riding around without a weapon and 2x bolts. So annoying to see them reloading as quick as a low level HA got to draw his bow.
The annoying thing about HX is however that their attacks will always be pierce and a rather "fixed" damage that's not changed by PD.
And there are more HX because its easier to become one as you don't need fully loomed EQ nor lvl 30+ at least like a HA.

edit: fking nerf HX!

[Grumpy_Nic]

They are the most annoying class in this game, no doubt

[Ronin]

(click to show/hide)

Its pretty simple really.

HAX Build (7/30)
Can either use Hunting Xbow or Light Xbow
Hunting Xbow = 37 pierce
Light Xbow = 46 pierce

HA Build (15/24)
Can use Short Bow, Bow, Nomad Bow, Tatar Bow or Horn Bow
Short Bow = 37 Cut
Bow = 41 Cut
Nomad Bow = 42 Cut
Tatar Bow = 44 Cut
Horn Bow = 48 Cut

So the Light Xbow does more damage than the horn bow yet costs 2k less and has 8 less difficulty
Whilst the Hunting Xbow does comparable damage to the Tatar Bow (possibly even the Horn Bow once you consider ammo and looms) and costs 2k less with 6 less difficulty.

So either increase xbow difficulties or reduce their damage to be the equivalent of the comparable bows based on difficulty.

Seems like a nice analysis, but cut damage is kinda irrelevant for HA. Let me give it a try:

Now take this into consideration:
HA
15/24

(click to show/hide)

Hp: 49
Riding: 8
Horse Archery: 4
Power Draw: 5
Weapon Master: 6
WPF: 154
Effective wpf (without any armor penalty): 154-64,5-40=49,5 (HA reduces 10 wpf per skill roughly)

+3 Hornbow and +3 Bodkin Arrows = 29p

Damage on foot (with all stats calculated)= raw_damage = (29p) * (49,5 * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * ((5) * 0.14 + 1) + 15 / 5.0 = 48,5p
Damage from horseback= 48,5p * (4*0.019 +0.8) = 42,5p

Accuracy= Don't know much about this, but every 1 damage a bow has decreases accuracy. So do the math. There is also wpf though.

HX
7/30

(click to show/hide)

Hp: 46
Riding: 10
Horse Archery: 5
Weapon Master: 10
Ironflesh: 2
WPF: 189
Effective wpf: 189-50=139 (but I'm not sure if Horse Archery skill affects your xbow proficiency)

+3 Light Xbow and +3 Steel Bolts= 65p
Damage on foot = 65p
Damage on horseback = 65p
Accuracy: Don't know much about this, but every 4 damage of xbow decreases it's accuracy by 1 point. Do the math. There is also wpf though.

My small comparision of classes (check the calculations first before reading this):

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-It is obvious which one is stronger damage-wise.

-Also don't forget 2 difference in riding means much much much better skirmishing capabilities and can mean much much much more speed bonus if you know how to use it. It is obvious which class is also better at skirmishing and dealing with other cavalry.

-Not really sure which one is more accurate, but I'm 99% sure horsexbow is more accurate. Xbowman even has 1 more point in HorseArchery to be more accurate while being on the move as well.

-Weapon breaking chance is determined by effective wpf if I'm not mistaken. You've already saw the difference.

-HorseArcher begins losing accuracy after holding the bow ready to shoot someone, but horsexbowman has no such a problem. This can be an important thing to consider, as being a close quarter skirmisher you have to land your shots whenever you see the opportunity. I'd say this is not the hugest advantage of a horsexbow, but it's nothing to underestimate either. I remember many times I had to redraw my bow because of holding it too much, and while I am redrawing my bow I've lost the opportunity.

-Horse archer can be said to have a better fire ratio, but it's wpf is not so high for him to have a good fire ratio at all. I mean it is comparatively better, but it is not that much significant and not really that high against anything in comparision. In a duel, it hardly matters as horsexbowman has better riding speed, better damage AND better accuracy. Chances for horse archer to land all of his shots to not let horse xbowman to reload is very low.

(click to show/hide)

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! WE HAVE A WINNER!

[bruce]

Horse crossbow is a somewhat better class.

That said, extreme 7/30 builds are trash and I never did such builds. They were popular on US servers for a while (US cavalry fad) because the US servers never had such a large contingent of good archers and crossbowmen on foot, so they could indeed ride around with impunity. However a 7/30 HX will get oneshot by either other HX, foot crossbows, oneshot or twoshot by archers, oneshot by throwing / etc. In my mind the 12+/24 builds are better, because 4 HA is completely enough for reasonable aim, and you can have decent armour and some IF to survive ranged fire which will be coming your way.

Before I respecced at level 29 I had nearly 2:1 K/D with my HX, and if I had a bit more practice (haven't been playing in ages) or more gold (so I could ride an eg. +3 destrier instead of +3 rouncey) it would've certainly been better. So it is quite effective, perhaps not as gamechanging as melee is (bar shooting melee heroes in smaller-scale maps and "cleaning up" in close match endings) but very effective. Granted, I had +3 steel bolts and +3 light crossbow, too. (Well, I was the first HX on EU1, in the time when archers were automatic sniper crossbows of doom.)

The counter to mounted ranged has always been foot ranged (and that counter is now weaker and less popular and much less effective if the HX doesn't care about upkeep and uses a panzerhorse). I tried a HA STF yesterday (with cheap gear, it would certainly be more effective with tatars or bodkins and +3s). It's useful and does do some kills, however it does to me seem it's a somewhat weaker class. It's also a noticeably more expensive class to maintain, which is just unfair, and has to spend all of its points to have a good build by level 30.

The price of bows (especially the medium/lower tier bows) and arrows needs to go down. Other than that, the class itself (HA) needs to boost because you CAN score kills and do something (I tried with nomad bow + barbed arrows and it sortof worked with that, preety sure with loomed khergit and a better bow it'd be much better), but rather the HX needs some sort of str-related requirement to both avoid the 30 agi builds and be forced to spend some extra points (eg. 3-4 points) to force it to make sacrifices if it wants ironflesh / powerstrike.

Alternatively, leave the HX as it is and boost archery a slight bit, at least in their anti-horse capabilities which are now pitifully weak. As long as a HX can afford to ride a destrier it is a nightmare to down it. Since upkeep clearly doesn't prevent players from using such gear, well, you get the situation there aren't enough counters. Furthermore, there often aren't enough players online to have a sufficient amount of ranged (as you see, ranged is quite essential in the game) and HXs/HAs become a gamebreaker.

[bruce]

Another thing.

The fact is that mounted ranged are quite a counter to mounted melee, which essentially are countered by either foot ranged (but they can move out of the way!) or mounted ranged (which they can't run away from, especially if it's mounted ranged on a courser or such). So normally melee horsemen hate horse ranged of all sorts with a passion, and would like to see HX nerfed to the level of HA.

(I'm quite sure that nobody will ever boost the efficiency of the HA class, we've had a time when HAs were, well, imagine a 50+ body armour person riding on a catapracht and doing 90-is pierce per shot, everyone is scarred by the memory)

However, CPRG needs ranged, both on foot and some on horse (since foot ranged is no longer THAT effective vs horses) to be playable for all classes, from infantry to melee cavalry of various types and so on. Furthermore, effective ranged coupled with open maps promotes teamplay. When will you see a shield wall or moving in formation in any of the huge number of town maps in rotation? Never. Will you ever see a formation of infantry in absence of ranged and cavalry? You won't, because you won't need to be in a formation. Will you ever see melee cavalry having some patience and sticking near their infantry and archers (for protection) instead of riding willy-nilly without effective foot & mounted ranged players? No, you won't, because they don't need to be protected from anything otherwise.

Of course, mounted ranged is annoying as hell to infantry, especially after they decided to nerf hybridization to hell with slots and all that jazz, so you just can't grab something from the ground to throw or whatnot. Still, it's a part of a complex ecosystem, and I'm quite sure infantrymen would not have a happier time if they were gone.

[Fandrall]

If you compare the two classes to eachother the HX will be the better one. Comming from nearly 2 years as a HA I find HX to be a really relaxed yet effective class that can do everything the HA can and more. The only situation I think HA would be more effective is if you have a well trained squad of each class. In that case the slightly higher reloadspeed of the HA would come into account. With the complete abcense of teamplay the slower reloading speed is neglectable though, you just ride off/dodge while reloading anyway.

To be able to hold you shot is gold. As HA you need to time your attacks as you only will be "accurate" during a short period of time. As HX (depending on build ofc) you are actually dead accurate at full speed and can go at someone and shoot without care about timing. All you need to do is pick a target, ride towards it aiming, release at close range and ride away from danger while reloading. If the target is dead then find a new one, if not repeat. If other cav is comming for you  run from them untill they get tired and go away.

About HX builds im sure the balanced builds are more flexible but the 7/30 build is in no way only a troll build. Yes you are weak and will go down fast but first someone needs to catch you or hit you at ranged. Having riding 10 really helps you keep out of harms way and if you choose your fights you'll have higher survivability then most classes/builds. Besides a lvl 30 7/30 HX with 2IF will have 46hp while a lvl 30 15/24 HA will have 50hp.

However I dont think HXs should be nerfed yet. On EU its a fairly new occurance and I think its better to let people adapt to the new threat b4 any nerfs are made. Sofar most HXs are STFs that ppl make to troll/test and then get tired of as it is harder then you think. These can be annoying but hardly have any impact on the outcome of a round.

P.S. All you ranged cav should get off your mounts if you are the last alive and there is next to no chance that you'll win. Keeps people from whine about the class which in turn will lower the risk of nerfs and its also not nice to make alot of ppl wait for you to finish your fun so they can continue theirs.

[CrazyCracka420]

I would probably do a 7/30 build if I was a HX and ride an arabian (if I could get a +3 even better), people who are paying attention rarely get caught when they ride these.  I don't even try against the better riders.

If ranged are targeting you, just keep juking and you'll be fine, otherwise you really have no threats (besides your own tunnel vision if you get too caught up on one enemy)

    Strength: 7
    Agility: 30
    Hit points: 42

    Converted: 4

    Athletics: 7
    Riding: 10

    Weapon Master: 10

    Crossbow: 190

Seems like one hell of a good build to me, only problem would be that if you don't have a light crossbow in a strat battle, you'd be worthless.  But if they do, and you're on foot, you'd still be a menace.

[bruce]

Don't take athletics. It's bad / worthless, and useful only in case you get downed in which case you're 80% dead anyway.

I'd take a +3 destrier. It's quite fast, very very fast with +3 riding and it's not going to die quickly and can also do damage by bumping which is important for people who hold their shield up. Ofc it's going to end up losing money if you do that.

You forgot you need HA skill, btw.

[CrazyCracka420]

Don't take athletics. It's bad / worthless, and useful only in case you get downed in which case you're 80% dead anyway.

I'd take a +3 destrier. It's quite fast, very very fast with +3 riding and it's not going to die quickly and can also do damage by bumping which is important for people who hold their shield up. Ofc it's going to end up losing money if you do that.

You forgot you need HA skill, btw.

Duh...thanks

So something like this then:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 7
    Agility: 30
    Hit points: 42

    Converted: 4
    Athletics: 2
    Riding: 10
    Horse Archery: 5
    Weapon Master: 10


    Crossbow: 181

Maybe put the 2 athletics into IF?