Nerfing Horse Xbows or Buff HA

[Strudog]

At the current time there is a clear difference between Horse Archer and a Horse CrossBowmen and that difference is that HX is 10x better than HA and is slightly overpowered.

The Pros and Cons between HA and HX:

HX:

- At the moment HX currently does obscene damage, it will tend 1-3 shot any person on the battlefield.
- Its is 10 x more Accurate currently because crossbows do not require and PD and thus allows for a lot more agility, they also are capable of getting more HA.
- HX is also able to invest more riding making the horse faster and more agile.
- Able to invest into more PS and wpf meaning they are able to defend themselves while dismounted.
- Able to invest into ATH and still keep its accuracy.
- With the New 0 Slot weapons Xbows are able to take 2 stacks of Bolts, meaning 26 Bolts for an entire round (MW Steel Bolts)

HA:
- More Ammo
- Faster reloading


As you can a clear Difference, This is not a demand or anything like that put a point of view and i would like to see what other peoples opinions are.

[Sandersson Jankins]

At the current time there is a clear difference between Horse Archer and a Horse CrossBowmen and that difference is that HX is 10x better than HA and is slightly overpowered.

The Pros and Cons between HA and HX:

HX:

- At the moment HX currently does obscene damage, it will tend 1-3 shot any person on the battlefield.
- Its is 10 x more Accurate currently because crossbows do not require and PD and thus allows for a lot more agility, they also are capable of getting more HA.
- HX is also able to invest more riding making the horse faster and more agile.
- Able to invest into more PS and wpf meaning they are able to defend themselves while dismounted.
- Able to invest into ATH and still keep its accuracy.
- With the New 0 Slot weapons Xbows are able to take 2 stacks of Bolts, meaning 26 Bolts for an entire round (MW Steel Bolts)

HA:
- More Ammo
- Faster reloading


As you can a clear Difference, This is not a demand or anything like that put a point of view and i would like to see what other peoples opinions are.

It's difficult to say whether or not a class is overpowered, but it is relatively easy to say if it is more powerful than another class.

While both classes receive a lot of ire from most players (myself included), HA has my respect at many times. It's painfully obvious that HX has a large advantage over HA. No idea how to fix it.

(click to show/hide)

I would prefer for crossbows to not be reloadable on horseback, but that's a really selfish desire.

[Strudog]

I dont like fighting ether class but yes it is very easy to see which class is a lot better

[CrazyCracka420]

I personally don't think HX are "OP", but I do think that HA sucks compared to HX and isnt' even really filling a niche at present.

[Rumblood]

PD style requirement for xbows should have been added long ago, before the 2 slot change even.

[bruce]

PD requirements don't change a goddamn thing, except make it take some extra levels to get the build working. Raising the str requirement, same result. You'd perhaps rule out 30 agi builds which is not in itself a bad thing. Still, mostly everyone would still pick a horse crossbowman over a horse archer, and here's why:

The reason you don't see any HAs is that playing a HA without fully heirloomed gear is futile. I got headshotted yesterday by one - it took 50% off my 12 str 0 IF 33 head armour char (and it wasn't raining)... that is just obscenely bad.


The biggest counter to mounted ranged was always foot ranged, by the way - but these days archers are neither very popular nor terribly effective, and it seems a lot of players have saved sufficient money to ride destriers and up, which means they can take a whole lot of ranged fire until they're down.

You know, in really old crpg HA skill was 1/12 agi and then 1/9 agi.

[Rumblood]

PD requirements penalize wpf, so they wont be as hyper-accurate as they are now. It also means they have to spend those points instead of cashing them in or getting more in Riding or hybriding up further. If you rule out 30 agi builds, you also rule out 5 HA, which also takes their accuracy down. Do that, and it is a fair playing field. They could also fix the cone of fire so that xbow bolts vary as widely within the reticule as arrows do. Bows? Arrows go to to the max reticule range from center 50% of the time. Xbows? 80% of the time they go straight down the middle regardless of reticule width. (Perhaps a slight exaggeration, but not much.)

The one other thing you could do to HX is slow down reload time when on horseback. That would give the HA more time to disrupt them.

Oh yes, I'm a horse archer. I know exactly what it takes to compete against them.

[Malaclypse]

PD requirements penalize wpf, so they wont be as hyper-accurate as they are now.

Isn't this implying that 1 prof xbow is inaccurate?

[Molly]

As with foot archer before and overall xbow now - it's not just HX - the problem on the server while playing isn't the accuracy, the damage nor the reload time.

The problem is in the amount of them running/riding around. On EU1 at times, no matter where you go, hide or cover behind, you gonna end up in the crossfire of ranged.
I played yesterday pretty much the whole day, starting in the morning around 9AM and turned it off around 7PM. Most of the rounds it took me already an incredible effort to even make it to the fight w/o being shot at least once till I got there.
An estimate of my "reasons of death" it's pretty much 50/50 between ranged and melee. Some may now say that this rate is okay but if you think about it, it really isn't. It's very frustrating if you wanna play a melee game but most of the time you arrive with only 50% of your health at the fight. And yes, I have awareness, I am dancing around to avoid being shot, I don't charge archer from the front, I don't run straight lines... but there is hardly anything you can do when the teams have more than 30% ranged in them and they start shooting you from 3 different directions/angles.

So, before nerfing or buffing anything, it would be actually nice to find something that reduces the numbers of ranged.

And I am NOT talking about throwing cuz that is actually fine. Ammo is very limited and accuracy is shit, not to mention that projectile speed is a joke which makes dodging them a piece of cake. Sad enough that they can't jump and throw anymore...

[DUKE DICKBUTT]

HX, or the ones we believe to be overpowered are an extremely specialized build.  The template, for 30, is generally 7/30.  7 STR to use a Light Crossbow, then the rest dumped into agility for riding, weapon mastery and horse archery.  I think you have two points left over for Iron Flesh.  However, you must take into consideration, there is no versatility here.  Once dehorsed, a HX is pitifully slow on foot, and without a speed bonus, the Light Crossbow is not particularly strong and has horrible ranged.  The HX can't melee, since 2 Power Strike would be worthless, and therefore not invested in.  Unlike the Horse Archer, who is stiill slow on foot, the HX does not make even a decent foot crossbowman.  The HX is useful in Strat field battles, assuming one side has Light Crossbows, Steel Bolts and Horses, but useless if they are absent.  The HX has almost no use in proper sieges, while the HA suffers almost no penalties until the ramparts are taken.

Also, HX, like HA, is expensive.  The cheapest recommended horse is 13,000 to start, if you're not going for the Arabian Warhorse which is 22,000 or the Eastern Horse which is 24,000.  The Light Crossbow is 5500, and the bolts are 2500, usually used with two stacks.  The armor is a bit inconsequential, however

Hybird HX, much to Asheram's chagrin, have recently received a pretty big nerf.  They must now use 0 slot 1handers if they wish to keep a shield, or use the pathetic 0 slot shield.

I don't believe HX to be too overpowered.  It is a highly specialized class, with extreme strengths and weaknesses.  It is also much more expensive than any infantry class, besides those in full plate.  It is nearly useless in Strat.  The unarmed horse charge nerf affected HX pretty adversely, as well.

Most players think HX are annoying, sometimes even those on the same team.  That annoyance comes from the play style that a HX must play in order to stay alive and be effective.  However, I think the issues lie in the rules and admin enforcement.  If the HX is not going to dismount and go for the flags at the end of the round, kick him.  I've seen Rohypnol do this on both his HX characters a number of times.  The admins let him farm his valour, while everyone waits around for another 2 minutes.

[Overdriven]

HX, or the ones we believe to be overpowered are an extremely specialized build.  The template, for 30, is generally 7/30.  7 STR to use a Light Crossbow, then the rest dumped into agility for riding, weapon mastery and horse archery.  I think you have two points left over for Iron Flesh.  However, you must take into consideration, there is no versatility here.  Once dehorsed, a HX is pitifully slow on foot, and without a speed bonus, the Light Crossbow is not particularly strong and has horrible ranged.  The HX can't melee, since 2 Power Strike would be worthless, and therefore not invested in.  Unlike the Horse Archer, who is stiill slow on foot, the HX does not make even a decent foot crossbowman.  The HX is useful in Strat field battles, assuming one side has Light Crossbows, Steel Bolts and Horses, but useless if they are absent.  The HX has almost no use in proper sieges, while the HA suffers almost no penalties until the ramparts are taken.

Also, HX, like HA, is expensive.  The cheapest recommended horse is 13,000 to start, if you're not going for the Arabian Warhorse which is 22,000 or the Eastern Horse which is 24,000.  The Light Crossbow is 5500, and the bolts are 2500, usually used with two stacks.  The armor is a bit inconsequential, however

Hybird HX, much to Asheram's chagrin, have recently received a pretty big nerf.  They must now use 0 slot 1handers if they wish to keep a shield, or use the pathetic 0 slot shield.

I don't believe HX to be too overpowered.  It is a highly specialized class, with extreme strengths and weaknesses.  It is also much more expensive than any infantry class, besides those in full plate.  It is nearly useless in Strat.  The unarmed horse charge nerf affected HX pretty adversely, as well.

I wouldn't say they are OP. Just that HA are excessively UP in comparison. Most of those things you named are the same for an HA. HA require a very specialised build. HA also obtain penalties to their accuracy (maybe damage as well) once they step foot on the ground and that's to an already weak horn bow. Whereas I think HX remains the same though not 100% on that. Most HA also have poor melee capabilities due to the specialisation. Strat battles they are useless unless bows and arrows are bought, but if they are above the strength of a horn bow then you can't use them. And as stated HA does suffer penalties compared to normal archers so yeah not very useful in siege either and HA is also very expensive due to the arrow upkeep increase.

[bruce]

Well, increasing the str requirement to say, 11 or more would make the 30 agi & 5 HA skill builds impossible, maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing?

[Strudog]

HX, or the ones we believe to be overpowered are an extremely specialized build.  The template, for 30, is generally 7/30.  7 STR to use a Light Crossbow, then the rest dumped into agility for riding, weapon mastery and horse archery.  I think you have two points left over for Iron Flesh.  However, you must take into consideration, there is no versatility here.  Once dehorsed, a HX is pitifully slow on foot, and without a speed bonus, the Light Crossbow is not particularly strong and has horrible ranged.  The HX can't melee, since 2 Power Strike would be worthless, and therefore not invested in.  Unlike the Horse Archer, who is stiill slow on foot, the HX does not make even a decent foot crossbowman.  The HX is useful in Strat field battles, assuming one side has Light Crossbows, Steel Bolts and Horses, but useless if they are absent.  The HX has almost no use in proper sieges, while the HA suffers almost no penalties until the ramparts are taken.

Also, HX, like HA, is expensive.  The cheapest recommended horse is 13,000 to start, if you're not going for the Arabian Warhorse which is 22,000 or the Eastern Horse which is 24,000.  The Light Crossbow is 5500, and the bolts are 2500, usually used with two stacks.  The armor is a bit inconsequential, however

Hybird HX, much to Asheram's chagrin, have recently received a pretty big nerf.  They must now use 0 slot 1handers if they wish to keep a shield, or use the pathetic 0 slot shield.

I don't believe HX to be too overpowered.  It is a highly specialized class, with extreme strengths and weaknesses.  It is also much more expensive than any infantry class, besides those in full plate.  It is nearly useless in Strat.  The unarmed horse charge nerf affected HX pretty adversely, as well.

Most players think HX are annoying, sometimes even those on the same team.  That annoyance comes from the play style that a HX must play in order to stay alive and be effective.  However, I think the issues lie in the rules and admin enforcement.  If the HX is not going to dismount and go for the flags at the end of the round, kick him.  I've seen Rohypnol do this on both his HX characters a number of times.  The admins let him farm his valour, while everyone waits around for another 2 minutes.

Everything what you have said there is rubbish snd i will tell you why.

Currently HX is not a specialised build as i have HX who is lvl 22 and can get 15 kills a map sometimes and top the scoreboard, this means for the remaining 8 levles i am able to put the rest in ATH or STR, where as HA they are not useful until lvl 27 or above.

With my HA i currently make money even on x1 so at the moment because the only expensive part is the horse.

HX accuracy at level 22 can be nigher than HA's at lvl 3 and there damage output hits like an arbalest as well, 60-80% damage against my 5 IF and Lordly armour set, currently it is overpowered and it is 10x better than the HA class which i should think should be just as effective

[IR_Kuoin]

HA

- Higher level to be efficient
- Ability to attack and defend in melee is quite low
- Can't get much riding (if they want to keep the accuracy)
- Has a low amount of damage, even with all MW
- Expensive to repair, and efficiency on the battlefield is minimum (good for taking down horses)

HX

- No reason not to be one over HA. "Why would you go HA now? HX is way better, do more damage have better accuracy, and is a lot cheaper." - NuuK.

[LordRichrich]

Maybe male all current xbows not re-loadable on horseback? And create a new "hand xbow" (I'm sure models are around) with stats tailored to a HX. I'm not going to suggest any, cos I have no idea!