[Stats] Strength Passive Still Too Potent

[Malaclypse]

The passive of Strength (referring to the HP gain per point one since Strength has two passives) is too potent. It's a pretty massive benefit and sort of detracts from the allure of Ironflesh (though, of course, stacking both is most effective); you can already get pretty good to great HP @ 24+ STR without ever even investing in Ironflesh. I'd like to see the passive HP benefit changed to be similar to Agility's passive gain (which is like, the equivalent of 1 ath every 3-4 agi or something?) while simultaneously buffing Ironflesh. This would hurt those who haven't invested very heavily into Ironflesh but instead rely on Strength for the bulk of their durability (like me, 18 STR, 3 IF; 6 HP from Ironflesh, 15 HP from STR). I don't feel like Stat investment should contribute to a build's effectiveness as much as skill allocation.

[Molly]

I've suggested this plenty of times and I'll keep doing it:

Remove the coupling of health to strength completely and introduce health as third attribute.

[Tzar]

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[San]

+1 hp per every other Strength.

Ironflesh = +4 hp per point = roughly -5 hp on max from now.
Ironflesh = +5 hp per point = roughly +5hp on max from now.

[Spa_geh_tea]

The passive of Strength (referring to the HP gain per point one since Strength has two passives) is too potent. It's a pretty massive benefit and sort of detracts from the allure of Ironflesh (though, of course, stacking both is most effective); you can already get pretty good to great HP @ 24+ STR without ever even investing in Ironflesh. I'd like to see the passive HP benefit changed to be similar to Agility's passive gain (which is like, the equivalent of 1 ath every 3-4 agi or something?) while simultaneously buffing Ironflesh. This would hurt those who haven't invested very heavily into Ironflesh but instead rely on Strength for the bulk of their durability (like me, 18 STR, 3 IF; 6 HP from Ironflesh, 15 HP from STR). I don't feel like Stat investment should contribute to a build's effectiveness as much as skill allocation.

Buff ironflesh to further increase the desparity between those who invested and those that did not.

[oprah_winfrey]

I would rather see a buff to the passive gain by agi then nerfing strengths passive skills.

[Tydeus]

I would rather see a buff to the passive gain by agi then nerfing strengths passive skills.

How about wpf/wpp formula reworks that could look something like this:

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I have played with 1 wpf several times in the past, it's certainly not impossible, especially for a skilled player, it just takes more awareness of you and your opponent's footwork and chosen swing directions. Hybrids won't really be affected by this, unless you try to hybrid with 3 WM. This would make WM and AGI more rewarding than they currently are, and only penalizes the most extreme str builds. A 15agi 1 wm build could get 105wpf for example.

[Torben]

id rather see an agi buff as well.  after all hybriding should be fostered and not gimped imo.

[Butan]

AGI buff is more important and fair than STR buff or nerf/buff or rebalancing.

But your idea is good and I support it (more HP FOR ME HEHEHE).

[DaveUKR]

How about wpf/wpp formula reworks that could look something like this:

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I have played with 1 wpf several times in the past, it's certainly not impossible, especially for a skilled player, it just takes more awareness of you and your opponents footwork and chosen swing directions. Hybrids won't really be affected by this, unless you try to hybrid with 3 WM. This would make WM and AGI more rewarding than they currently are, and only penalizes the most extreme str builds. A 15agi 1 wm build could get 105wpf for example.

the idea is something close that I would make, it's a very coold idea. But the numbers are bullshit. WM should not give such big numbers.

[Lennu]

I agree that the passive bonuses for str are much better than for agility. But IMO the hp system should stay as it is, so buff agility a bit instead of nerfing str. Maybe a small reduction to wpf penalty from armor. Or simply give 4 or 3 wpf points per agi point.

[Tydeus]

WM should not give such big numbers.

It's not until 4 WM that you will start to get more wpf, and even then, the most you gain in comparison to what we have now, is about 15-20 wpf. While you can say wm shouldn't be any bit more rewarding for archery(which I would disagree with), I think a lot more is required in balancing str vs agi, than simply moving the passive wpp gain from levels to agi. Again, 24/15 with 1 WM would result in 105 wpf, and a 15/24 8 wm build would only give you a net gain of 87 wpf, where as under our current system, you're looking at a difference of 53 wpf. A mere 10 or 15 wpf change in this scenario isn't going to make even the slightest of differences.

Some people are going to say this goes too far, others that it doesn't go far enough. No matter what, I think it's quite easy to argue that the current proposal puts us in a better spot than where we are now. So if you think it is a great idea but needs a tweak, please give me a critique with some depth to it.

[San]

the idea is something close that I would make, it's a very coold idea. But the numbers are bullshit. WM should not give such big numbers.

4-9 WM doesn't look like too much of an increase compared to what we have, now ~10 points. I think 10+ WM probably deserves something compared to 10+ PS, so the high numbers there seem justified. Right now, there's little incentive to go higher than 27 agi without purposefully gimping yourself. A little testing is required to see how high one can increase wpf before it becomes too unfair in terms of weapon speed. I think the first few points are still pretty powerful, I would make it a little tougher for 1-5 WM.

[Pentecost]

But the numbers are bullshit. WM should not give such big numbers.

I disagree. There are a number of reasons why the Tydeus' proposed schema is a good one:

1.) As Malaclypse said, there is an imbalance between extreme strength and extreme agility builds in terms of usefulness. There is currently no point in having an extreme agility build (ie 27 or more agility) for a melee character unless you are either very high level, a rageball alt, or someone who enjoys being dead most of the time. Extreme strength builds (ie 27 or more strength), on the other hand, are very rewarding to play on both duel and battle as long as you know how to block and have good awareness. Something that makes them of more equal effectiveness is a plus in my book.

2.) As it is currently implemented, there is little reason to get a lot of WM over converting the extra skill points you would save or allocating them somewhere else. With the free 111 wpf he gets from leveling, a straight 1 weapon melee build usually only wants about 3 WM to offset the penalty from his armor. This would be fine except that even hybrids don't get as much out of WM as they do with a similar investment in other skills. 7 WM is currently not enough to use even 3 weapon classes at 110 wpf (before armor penalty), whereas 7 riding is enough to use nearly every horse better than the majority of the population.

3.) From the standpoint of game design, it makes agility and WM parallel with strength and IF. With a change in the vein of what Tydeus has suggested, you would be able to get decent wpf with sufficiently high agility and no WM in the same way that you would be able to get decent HP with sufficiently high strength even with no IF, although you would get a greater benefit in both cases by actually investing skill points.

The specifics of it may need some tweaks, but the general idea of it is definitely sound. Some people have raised concerns about excessively high weapon speeds coming out of a wpf rework, but I do not think that will be a major issue because cRPG now has an absolute level cap of 36 and no wpf carryover on retirement. It is unlikely many people would be able to get more than 200 wpf in one weapon class without either being very high level or sacrificing everything else to do so, and the requirements of specific items can be adjusted if a problem arises.

[oprah_winfrey]

As of right now, basically all of my level 30 builds follow the same pattern. 8 converts, max Ath, PS, IF, throw the rest into WM. Sometimes I will shave a few points off of the IF/WM into shield, thats about the only variation. Talk about boring.