Frightening new policy: Nerfing Overused Items

[PikeDan]

If overused items where actually nerfed, you'd be seeing a huge nerfing of steel picks, those things are still constantly used and are some of the faster 1h's around, whipping around something like that when it's in all reality, just a really pointy axe is, in my eyes, the one weapon that needed nerfing with the last patch and didn't get any sort of nerfing at all. (If it did, please tell me, because I don't see it.)

That aside, there are only one or two things that are constant, the bitching at archers for being OP by 2hers, and people bandwagoning onto new builds and using items because they are OP, it's not a bad thing, it's just how the game works, if a ton of people are using a weapon set, build and are constantly exploiting an issue with the engine (Wonky hitboxes for some curved swords, for example.) because somebody found out the weapon's inherent strengths before anybody else, other people are going to grab onto it and enjoy it just as much, and the rest who aren't moving to that build and weapon are just going to have to adapt.

[Thomek]

Agree with Plazek. +1

Generally weapon balance should be about about making weapons more or less equal in the fuzzy term "Battle Power". Perhaps except some extremely low tier weapons like wooden swords or extremely cheap weapons.

From mid to high tier, weapons should be equal, not equal in stats, but in "Battle Power", so that it us up to the wielder to take the difficult choice of what wep to use and heirloom. That way we would see much more variety and specialized chars. I.ex German Greatsword would no longer be obvious.

The same could be done i.ex for Bows, the dillemma would be speed vs damage vs req vs accuracy, but objectively they would be "equally" powerful in a general sense.

I've explained the concept further in this old post: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,153.msg1189.html#msg1189

[MadJackMcMad]

- People get two choices:
            -either stick with their favorite weapon 
            -move on to the next one, creating a new overused one, creating an endless cycle of nerfing

You forgot the third option.

- log into the forums and whine.

He joked!  ... sort of.

I trust this is also about your Flamberge?  That weapon I have only the other day seen one shot 4 armoured people in a row.  Needs more damage you say?

[Magikarp]

You forgot the third option.

- log into the forums and whine.

He joked!  ... sort of.

I trust this is also about your Flamberge?  That weapon I have only the other day seen one shot 4 armoured people in a row.  Needs more damage you say?

One shot 4 armoured people in a row? That's a very clearly stated argument.
And no, Flamberge was actually an underused weapon, which doesn't apply to this thread's topic.

If you mean the form of whining in which you back it up with hard evidence, than yes, the third option is one I forgot.
Devs confirmed this policy themselves, I can quote them if you wish me to.

Anyways, I think it's clear that people are against this policy. Let's just hope the devs got the message.

[Belatu]

nerfing overused items is equal to an indirect boost to nonused items, so looking for a balanced diversification of items seems like if they follow this way ahead they will have, eventually, alots of items wittch using frequency is homogeneally diversificated. As this seems to be what is intended to be for a balanced shop of items, we all should to be happy about because yes.

The developers are using the statistics to make a mod rich in details. But they dont care about your feelings because they are very conscious about the fact that they are working on a betamod, and some players think they are in a finished game where they can work for an estatic happiness. Wrong.

I say.

[Tears of Destiny]

Well spoken.

It does say "Welcome to c-RPG BETA"

[Magikarp]

nerfing overused items is equal to an indirect boost to nonused items, so looking for a balanced diversification of items seems like if they follow this way ahead they will have, eventually, alots of items wittch using frequency is homogeneally diversificated. As this seems to be what is intended to be for a balanced shop of items, we all should to be happy about because yes.

The developers are using the statistics to make a mod rich in details. But they dont care about your feelings because they are very conscious about the fact that they are working on a betamod, and some players think they are in a finished game where they can work for an estatic happiness. Wrong.

I say.

You actually believe that people will start using different weapons if you nerf the overused one? Come on, I've already pointed out that that doesn't work.

Yes, this is a beta. But should a beta necessarily be a bad product than? I could care less about what the devs think of our feelings. I'm rather pointing out something that should be avoided at all times.

[Native_ATS]

Re: [WHINE] Long Maul is useless now
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:22:41 »QuoteI Magikarp : don't see why a longer weapon should deal more damage, all crushtrough weapons got a nerf, deal with it.   
sooo my thoughts on the flamburg is, I don't see why a longer weapon should deal more damage, all 2 handed swords got a nerf, deal with it.

[Belatu]

You actually believe that people will start using different weapons if you nerf the overused one? Come on, I've already pointed out that that doesn't work.

Yes, this is a beta. But should a beta necessarily be a bad product than? I could care less about what the devs think of our feelings. I'm rather pointing out something that should be avoided at all times.

You are wrong and I am right.  learn to live with that. 

[Magikarp]

Re: [WHINE] Long Maul is useless now
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:22:41 »QuoteI Magikarp : don't see why a longer weapon should deal more damage, all crushtrough weapons got a nerf, deal with it.   
sooo my thoughts on the flamburg is, I don't see why a longer weapon should deal more damage, all 2 handed swords got a nerf, deal with it.

Maybe you did not understand, which I can understand from new players. What I meant was that the weapon shouldnt deal more damage than the shorter Great Maul, Mallet etc. Aka weapons in the same category. And why bring this discussion here? Flamberge was not an overused item.

@Belatu: is that all you have to say? This is too easy.

[Belatu]

@Belatu: is that all you have to say? This is too easy.

Universal laws are simple and easy, it´s part of the beautyness of the THING.

[Kafein]

Magikarp, I agree 100%.

They should at least give us back prepatch req. Now my fav weapons cant be used with my fav agistacking build, unlike prepatch -.-

And I have to use Niuweidao instead of Elite Scimitar... which a) is worse b) doesn't fit my style 100%

Fixed. Sorry but this was needed for too long and it's just sad you did your build wrong because of the prepatch reqs.




On the topic, although nerfing the overpowered weapons is what we want, it is not possible to measure the OPness of something. It depends on so many internal (speed, damage, reach, cost, animations...) and external (maps, opponents, classes balance, equipment trends, tactical situation...) factors it is completly impossible to tell what is and what isn't OP.

Trying to balance equipment on the base of their effective "power" is just like trying to tax people based on their "kindness". Maybe it would be better, but if you can't measure what you need to say whether something is right or not, then it's not doable.

Average use, however, is extremely easy to get (devs have graphs about that, those were allready quoted many times). It is not a perfect appraisal (google traduction, sorry) of the imbalance, but not that bad neither. It's based on the assumption that a good part of the cRPG population will be attracted by weapons they do better with, and use them more often.

Just imagine there was a completly OP weapon capable of oneshotting any enemy at range without aiming. Allmost everyone will end up using it (before quitting, obviously), and it is a good clue about something fishy going on with that weapon. On the other extreme, a completly useless weapon isn't used much. Just take the sickle, I rarely even see peasants using that, and in fact it's not OP at all. People roleplaying a sickle warrior are... hum... I think I'm the only crazy guy that created an alt to do that.


Now, there is missing information if we only consider the part of players using a piece of equipment. For example, an extremely imbalanced equipment (i.e. Plated Charger, although it doesn't seem like it is so overpowered in combat, it is when used by a good cavalry) that costs a shitload of gold will not be used much, but still is OP if we only consider someone using it in a particular battle. It's good not so many things lie in this category.


Addendum :

Furthermore, because others pointed it out, nerfing by overuse is the way to reintroduce diversity. It was lost when leveling became so fast anyone could make an alt of the latest OP thing or make a clone of you in two days. Nerfing overused items is slow but it can't really go backward. It will force people to decide what they like and will lighten their personal playstyles, now hidden behind the obvious weapon choice.

[Magikarp]

Why should you nerf someone's favourite item, when it may not even be overpowered, just because a lot of others use it too, for whatever reason they may have?

My god, this new russian weapon looks awesome! A lot of people start using it, needs a nerf? No, clearly not.

This does not reintroduce diversity, it reintroduces an endless cycle of nerfing because one weapon will always be used more than others. This is unavoidable.


Stop associating overpowered weapons with 'overused' weapons.

[Camaris]

So you are saying overpowered weapons are not overused?

[Belatu]

He is saying to stop nerfing overused weapons because seems like overpowered weapons are overused but all overused weapons are not overpowered. So what he seems to say is to stop nerfing overused items for the only fact that they are overused. But the thing that we dont know is what proportion of overused items are overpowered because if the proportion of overuserness is high enough overpowerness and overuserness will be treat as equal by fasaderp and co