Why nerf Heavy Throwing Axes? Tweak the stat change or go back to 3 ammo.

[Lennu]

4 stacks is still 8 axes, and 8 axes are still 8 kills

No.

Take a great Bardiche, it has the same cut damage. Now I'm not sure how big the % damage increase is for the PT and PS. But even with 10 PS you CANNOT 1hit kill players every times. Not even 50% of the time. + shields will still take 2-5 axes to break.

[Bash Brisecul]

well tydeus we disagree about HTA, but to answer your question about the relation between all the axes, I can tell you that presently the francisca is overall best but only when you consider that due to its very low weight it hardly slows your run speed at all.
throwing axes don't do enough damage more than franciscas to be worth the lesser ammo and higher weight.
heavy throwing axes have good damage now compared to the spears line, but having only two ammo per stack is a total killer, spoils it.

Yep i Agree with Artie. I might be mistaking but it seems they lowered the weight of the HTA to 2.7, same as Fransisca.

[NJ_Legion_Icedtea]

Take a great Bardiche, it has the same cut damage. Now I'm not sure how big the % damage increase is for the PT and PS. But even with 10 PS you CANNOT 1hit kill players every times. Not even 50% of the time. + shields will still take 2-5 axes to break.

Yeah I understand that, but I suppose what I am saying is that it's still 8 axes, that is still 8 hits you can get and with MW being 51 cut damage you will be doing a hell lot of damage to someone. The only problem I have found with the patch is having to pick up a 1h weapon or using an axe for melee more. Personally I still prefer H.axes over the others. I suppose in a similar way that some people prefer Greatswords and others prefer less damage but faster weapons

[Phew]

It's helpful to think of it in terms of "damage per stack". I'll use espu's calculations, despite the fact that the damage formula is out of date, but there isn't an up-to-date damage calculator as far as I know.

I'll assume 5 power throw, 100 wpf (typical hybrid thrower stats), against a target with 50 armor (my guess of the average body armor in crpg right now).

Damage per stack (value if loomed to +3 shown in parentheses):
Francisca: 46 (66)
Throwing axes: 63 (77)
Heavy throwing axes: 61 (70)
Throwing hammer: 66 (81)
War Darts: 66 (99)
Jarid: 93 (108)

Unloomed, HTA, TA, throwing hammer, and war darts are pretty balanced against each other right now, and Francisca is still pretty weak. When loomed, war darts become exceptional in that company, and francisca becomes competitive.

Jarid is far and away the best choice now (loomed or unloomed), and a candidate to be dropped to 2 per stack if the devs want to nerf throwing as a whole, but remain internally balanced. Artie's brain would explode if they did this, but internal balance among throwing weapons would give us the weapon diversity I think everyone wants.

If Jarid is to remain at its current strength and internal balance is to be maintained, they would need to add 1 additional axe per stack to each of the three throwing axe choices. I'm aware that throwing axes have some other advantages over Jarid (higher rate of fire, better melee mode, etc), so if they did that, they should probably revert to the old damage values for heavy throwing axe.

[Malaclypse]

So when throwing axes are used in melee mode, do they keep their throwing damage or are there a new set of values?

[oprah_winfrey]

So when throwing axes are used in melee mode, do they keep their throwing damage or are there a new set of values?

I believe they have a new set of values. Otherwise throwing lances would be op in melee what with their 60p.

[Rhekimos]

I believe they have a new set of values. Otherwise throwing lances would be op in melee what with their 60p.

This is correct. Last time I checked, Heavy Throwing Axes had 30 cut in melee mode.

[Phew]

This is correct. Last time I checked, Heavy Throwing Axes had 30 cut in melee mode.

32, 36 when loomed to +3. I enjoy the melee mode of HTA very much, to the point where I rely on it in every fight against another shielder.

[Rhekimos]

32, 36 when loomed to +3. I enjoy the melee mode of HTA very much, to the point where I rely on it in every fight against another shielder.

OK. 36 cut makes them a very viable melee weapon.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Imo, they should have given a small damage nerf (like 1-2 points) to HTA if anything, but given buffs to the regular throwing axes and franciscas. I reckon this change was an attempt to increase the numbers of throwing axes and franciscas used, but I imagine that the only change will be people still using the heavy throwing axes while being miserable, or respeccing from throwing.

Can't say I'm upset with the change personally, though. I couldn't hit SHIT with heavy throwing axes anyway, but can laser beam javelins or wardarts into a man.

[Phew]

I imagine that the only change will be people still using the heavy throwing axes while being miserable, or respeccing from throwing.

I only ever used mine to throw down ladders in siege or hit kiting archers in the back (now archers are slow, so that's not even a use, although x-bowers still kite sometimes).

I probably get maybe 5% of my points from throwing, but 50% of my fun. It's just so hilarious to toss axes into a crowd and see what happens. If you actually care about performance, gotta use Jarids now. Jarids just aren't as fun for some reason though.

[Malaclypse]

The reasoning for the change seems pretty clear, as Sandy mentions: most throwers, and by far most axe throwers were using Heavy Axes over Francisca/Throwing Axes. They did this because, well, if you're min-maxing, the choice was pretty clear; they only had four requirement, they do absurd damage, and you could roll with 12 of them. Now, the Heavy Throwing Axe is in a place where it's no longer supposed to be the "main" item and is better used as an accompaniment to 1h/shield or other, larger stacked throwing items. They aren't by any means out of the game, but are at least competitive with the regular Throwing Axes now instead of leagues ahead of them (Franciscas could still use a bit of abuff).

[Phew]

The reasoning for the change seems pretty clear, as Sandy mentions: most throwers, and by far most axe throwers were using Heavy Axes over Francisca/Throwing Axes. They did this because, well, if you're min-maxing, the choice was pretty clear; they only had four requirement, they do absurd damage, and you could roll with 12 of them. Now, the Heavy Throwing Axe is in a place where it's no longer supposed to be the "main" item and is better used as an accompaniment to 1h/shield or other, larger stacked throwing items. They aren't by any means out of the game, but are at least competitive with the regular Throwing Axes now instead of leagues ahead of them (Franciscas could still use a bit of abuff).

It's obvious that the intent was to get more axe diversity, but the end result will be less diversity, since everyone will just use Jarids now.

[Malaclypse]

It's obvious that the intent was to get more axe diversity, but the end result will be less diversity, since everyone will just use Jarids now.

Min-maxers definitely will, yeah, and I guess those are mostly the type of people who used Heavy Throwing Axes over other things in the first place. They'll always play like that.

[Turboflex]

HTA did "absurd" damage?? Dunno about that...

Pure thrower is just not a very good class in general either, hardly battlefield terrors, it's just a funny gimmick.

Like Phew said this seems to be an attempt to make lower tier axes more useful by putting in better trade offs between the 3 (ammo vs. damage), but I just think the trade off isn't that great with HTA anymore since -33% ammo is A LOT compared to just a 3 cut dmg upgrade.

for just 2 ammo I just think damage should be a bit higher,  between Jarids and Throwing lances, so more like 50-51 cut (remember they are pierce damage too, so better than cut), that would make it more appealling.

I still think HTA are nice weapons. I used them for a long time and just switched to Jarids a few months ago only cuz my accuracy improved a lot and I was throwing at targets further away. I would still recommend HTA for someone newer to throwing who is still fumbling with timing and needs to focus on closer range targets. THey seem to have better hitboxes, add the faster windup speed means getting caught less, plus the better melee mode for when you do.