[Applications] Item balancers

[Tuetensuppe]

i hope you will pick several guys out of several classes...

so here i am to jump in for all the shielders

just an example, even if i'm mainly shielder or from time to time a really bad HX, i dont like what was done to the mauls and what the longspear and pike have become

and im not thinking about "nerf, nerf, nerf" in the first place -> in my opinion several thinks should be buffed or need some small changes


greetings


Tuete a la suppe

(click to show/hide)

dear Kalp,
its quite nice to see how you even in a thread like that -1/+1 people no matter what they are saying or arguing about
-> my personal +1 for you and your way to fight strategus battles also in threads like that   

[Korgoth]

Played Warband since the beta, played cRPG since the day it came first came out. I've taken quite long breaks before but I'm still an active player. About weapon balance I would say it's pretty much as balanced as you can get it, ofcourse theres a few weapons which I feel need to be slighty nerfed *cough Rondel dagger*. I have played near enough every class in cRPG, I have alts for most classes. Right now my main is a Hoplite with a warspear, was this class before the massive hoplite buff.

Also you said you are looking for clever people, I am loads cleverer then loads of peoples in cRPGs.

It's me... Howard..
               Korgoth

[Fips]

I've been playing this mod for almost 2 years now (Or maybe 1.5, don't remember exactly) and i'm quite experienced with all classes. Most of the time i was 2h, archer-hybrid and 1h(+cav), but i've spend a lot of time with the other classes as well. My alts all together have 6 or 7 gens, where i played basically any class there is.

I've never actually spend much time making suggestions in the proper forum-section, but that is only because i feel like most of them are not even considered or maybe even ignored. To change that would be my pleasure to do.

However, the most important thing in this application is probably the fact that i myself like to have some quality-time while playing this mod and i would really like to spend more time making it that for everyone, hence the application for admin and now this one.


That is all, thanks. =)

Oh well, one thing, since you asked it specifically in the OP: The current state of cRPG is actually quite balanced as far as i can tell. There are some items that definitely need some optimization (Steel pick, rondel dagger, Great Axe for example. Basically you just have to look at strategus to find the most OP weapon =D) and some classes really need some sweet lovin' (Archers still do balance-wise, as well as xbow) but most of the time when i think about what's wrong with the current state of cRPG it's usually something that is allowed by the mechanics, which should be not. Like face-hugging long spears hitting you in the head while actually just giving you a little bump on the head with it's shaft. 

[Smoothrich]

[Xol!]

I am an active player, I usually have 3-4 alts that I run around on.  I've played pretty much every class.  My main is a level 34 2h cav, I currently have polearm, xbow, great lancer, and hx alts.  I've been playing the game for a pretty long time (since the old xp/gold/retirement system), and spend way too much time testing game mechanics and arguing about item balance with Tydeus.

Generally, I think fights last too long as a result of a long stretch of small nerfs that generally made the game slower and less exciting.  On that note, I think 2h is in a good place and the other melee classes should be buffed to meet it.

The more specific issues I currently perceive with item balance include:
* 1h cut is (mostly) underpowered
* 1h stab is borderline unuseable
* 1h weapons have a ton of models but too little variety in actual stats
* Most polearms are underpowered, especially with the new turn speed mechanic coming in and the removal of polestagger.  Most could very justifiably use a buff.
* HA is underpowered at level 30 or below, though it becomes very good at post-retirement levels.  However, this is a game mechanic issue rather than an item issue.  This might be alleviated by changing (halving?) the amount of bonus HA skill gives and letting people take it every 3 points of agility to allow 21/27 agility builds to maximize their horse archery skill.
* HX is overpowered, and this is definitely an item issue.  I would suggest a relatively harsh nerf to light crossbow/hunting crossbow damage and a slight buff to reload speed.
* Cavalry bump damage is too high, especially on mid-tier horses
* Crossbows are too easy to hybrid because they have no direct damage modifiers related to character stats.  Also the arbalest is not a good weapon when compared to a heavy crossbow.  This is a tricky thing to fix because you don't want to overbuff the arbalest, but you want it to be effective against plate and also encourage arbalest users to target plate over unarmored targets.  My suggestion to try and fix both of these problems would be to remove the 'extra penetration' flag from all crossbows except the arbalest, then add a wpf curve to the class.
* 2h class is balanced internally for the most part.  There are very minor stat changes that might be made, but most of the weapons feel at least viable.  Also make studded warclub 1h/2h and useable on horseback and make long iron mace useable on horseback (since they don't have crushthrough anymore).
* Throwing is okay, but it's the one class that I truly hate playing because I am absolute garbage at it.  I will probably abstain from most throwing discussion, other than mentioning that they really need to be able to jump when they throw, and that change should probably be reverted, even if it means archer/xbow jumpshots coming back.
* Shields are (mostly) okay.  There are a few that could use a tweak (like the one-shottable round steel buckler, even though it's 0 slot).  Controversial opinion: I think everyone should be able to pick up shields, shields should be nerfed, and shield skill should be buffed to compensate.  It would solve a lot of the perceived ranged problems, and archer kiting could possibly be un-nerfed.
* I just finished an archer gen on an alt, and I think that it's in a pretty decent place.  I don't really like the arrow weight change, and would rather see a mechanic or metagame change to discourage kiting instead (like the shield thing).
* In general I think armor is okay, except that it really, really drags out fights.  I actually preferred the way armor worked before the armor soak changes.  In all honesty, though, I am a light armor player unless I'm in a strat battle, so I would need to take a more in-depth look at armor as a whole before suggesting any changes.  I would also want to see the weapon classes mostly balanced before working on any major armor changes.

I think that's about it.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


edit: Someone pointed out to me in teamspeak that my programming background may be worth mentioning.  I've also taken a brief look at the warband module system and have a (very) general idea of how it works.

[Tomas]

I'll apply.

My CV
- Played cRPG for over 2 years (can't remember when i started)
- Including alts I've played many gens as a shielder
- Many gens as Xbow
- 3 gens as archer
- 3 gens as polearm (1 as cav)
- 1 gen as 2H
- Actively helped with Strat.
- Been a Beta Tester for a while now.
- Made numerous suggestions on forums which i try and structure rather than just writing walls of text.
- Good historical knowledge having grown up with a military/social historian for a mother.
- Good with numbers having done a physics degree.
- I'm systematic, analytical and logical (again from the Physics but also from my current Logistics MSc)

EDIT:  Adding in my reasons for wanting to do this and what i'd change.

My reasons are simple - I have the time, want to put something back into the game in return for the many hours i've gotten out of it and I think I can do a good job.

What I want to do is also fairly simple.  I just want to split the weapons up into families and then make sure those families are internally balanced by roughly correlating speed & damage stats with weight, cost and length attributes.  I don't want absolute correlation here as that would be boring but there should be some sort of system there   Right now some items correlate but then others completely buck the trend

[Shemaforash]

I've played cRPG for around two years and native since release.
I've played at least more than 200 matches in native and I'm quite enjoying playing in strategus as well as the current cRPG clan league.
I have lots of experience with the game itself and I find myself to be rather unbiased while having fun playing different classes (Archer, xbow, 1h & shield, 1h only, 2h, polearm, lancercav, 1h and shielder cav, horsexbow) and probably some more that I missed out.
Since I made a fool out of myself last time I applied to admin I'll keep it short without being repetitive, thanks.

I just wanted to say as well that this is a position I would take very seriously and where I feel most enthusiastic to help out with.

[XyNox]

XyNox's application

First of all I want to say, and I am not doing this to gain anyones favour, thank you for including the community into these kind of processes. It certainly is most welcome. Without further ado,


  I hereby wish to apply for the position of an item balancer.



  Why do I want to join ?


I want to participate in item balancing for the sake of a better gaming experience for all people involved. I am a long time player and it I think it is safe to say that there is nothing more frustrating than getting your experience spoiled by unfortunate circumstances, that you or your personal skill can not overcome. Sadly, speaking out of my personal observations, the root of that issue seems to be bad item balancing in particular quite some times. Getting rid of these issues is my goal and my intention behind applying.

Let me also point out that am looking forward to pursue an unbiased and fair balancing policy, especially regarding topics that may affect me or my class more than others. I am quite aware that I get involved in class-trashtalk on the forums or ingame every now and then, harshly criticising other players for their choice of class and equipment. Let me assure you however that I am also aware that with the right to make decisions comes with great responsibility and the need of maturity, which I can both provide.



  What do I think about the current state of balancing ?


I say the game is certainly not unbalanced, neither I would concider it perfectly balanced ( which is probably the reason behind offering people to act as item balancers ). I notice some issues when comparing items regarding a single class, as in comparing all 1H weapons for example, though I would not declare these gamebreaking. The real problem this game currently suffers from is balance between all the different classes. At least this appears to be the one producing the most rage on the forums. Contrary to opinions that other people in this community share, I do think those issues can be resolved by balancing item stats only, without having to touch core gameplay mechanics.

In the end, to really understand the full extent of what is balanced and what is not, we are in need of detailed ingame testing. No more theorethical scenarios that have been ripped out of context. No more discussions about why this or that argument, which player X brought up is invalid because he didnt keep battlefield-value Y in mind. I have played every class there is. Some more, some less, and if I know something, it is that I cant talk about something in specific that I have not tried doing myself. And I think many people will be surprised on how someones point of view can change when actually giving something a try instead of only talking about it.



  How would I tackle a problem ?


First of all, no matter how assured I am about my sense of objectivity, I see involving coworkers about my opinion as a necessity. Logic as in "does it make sense" should be the first tool in your belt when approaching a problem. If a potential solution to the problem showed up, the next thing to check should be seeing it in the big picture, giving it some context. E.g. If the numbers in the formulars are right but the whole thing feels wrong, it simply doesnt fit the big picture and is therefore not a valid solution to the problem. Always be aware of the worst case scenario of you ideas, the best case scenarios and then everything in between.

The most important thing is probably not to get biased towards your own ideas. When I remember my beginnings of making maps for HL1 about 11 years ago, I saw beauty in ugly, blocky, badly aligned structures, although there was no beauty there. The only reason for me to make up these illusions was simply due to the fact that it was created by my own hand. Something I did not notice back then but I surely do today.



  Final words


I really like this mod and play it a lot more than I should. Helping to develope instead of just playing cRPG would be outright awesome. I am highly active and can afford a lot of time. Needless to say, I am looking forward to answer questions, if there may be any.

E: I hope gangminusing from the usual lobbyists has no influence on any decisions made here.

  Thank you for reading

[karasu]

Well, won't be doing massive walls of text, so, I think I have a good background to help on this subject.

    Been playing different classes every gen/respecc (main at gen 25, several alts, some at gen 4 p.e.), specially post nerf/buff chances to actually see what changed or simply due to ineffectiveness of such classes/play-styles.

    Can say with all honesty that at this point in my crpg-career I'm way more neutral and objective regarding item balancing specially due to all the info above.

Any other info, feel free to PM me.

[Apsod]

Hi, I'm Apsod, and this is my application for being an item balancer for this mod.


I have been playing M&B since 2007 and over the 6 years that I have been playing this game and with over 3000 hours of play time I have learnt pretty much every single little thing about the game. In 2008 I begun learning how to tweak the game to the way I wanted it. I used simple programs like TweakMB, HokieBT's Troop Editor and Jordan's Item Editor. These programs allowed me to do things that I had wanted to do since I first tried the game.

When Warband was released I made my way into trying to modify the game on a more advanced level using the module system. I made a few small mods such as Angry Farmers and Warrior Evolution. I felt that the mods I created was a bit to simple and I wanted to add some more advanced things, so I tried learning how to make my own scripts, so I could add new features into the game. I realised that it was not that easy and I felt that I didn`t have the time to learn such things. So I stopped releasing mods, but what I continued to do was making these small mods that featured a lot of new bots and weapons. I made so many of these tiny mods that I could sit here for hours writing about them. I have no idea how many I have made. I also made a bunch of small mods that me and a couple of friends played. All of this learnt me more than I should know about how to balance a mod.

Now, I have been playing cRPG since there was only a 40 player server up. I have played every class in the mod and I know the strengths and weaknesses of them all. I think that for the most part that cRPG is a balanced mod, but there are a few classes and equipment pieces that are either OP or UP. I feel I an idea on how to fix these things though. I know that cRPG has its own features that I would have to adjust to, such as archers not be able to jump or the turn rate nerf, but I think that I should have no problem balancing with those in mind.

Now, I know that everyone will not agree with my point of view on balancing the items in this mod. People will always try to make the developers buff their own class or nerf the natural enemy of their class. I will try to listen to the community as well as my own judgement, but I will also have to not just listen to the loudest part of the community. I feel that there are some cases where a class or specific item isn`t that good actually, but yet the majority of players still complain about it. As an example I will take archery. Almost every non-archer complains about archers, but in my eyes they are not that good. The reason why people complain about them is because they are annoying, now I want to try to do something about that. Try to change them in a way to make them less annoying, but not less effective.

To sum this all up I want to finish with a Tl;Dr for people who don't want to read my wall of text.



Tl;Dr:

Why do I think I should be a part of the item balance team?

• I have a lot of experience with balancing mods.
• I have a played a lot of M&B and cRPG
• I have played every class in the mod and know their weaknesses and strengths
• I have an idea of how to fix the things I find unbalanced
• I will listen to the community as well as my own judgement.
• I know that cRPG has new combat features that I will have to adjust to when balancing, and I also feel that I know how to deal with this.
• I have a real passion for this stuff. I have wanted to be able to do something like this since I discovered cRPG.
• Probably a few other things that I have forgot about. I might edit and add some more things If I remember them.

[brockssn]

Only post if you apply, + to show support

We are looking for clever people that are capable of joining the item balance team.

If you have a good understanding of the combat mechanics, are an active player and can think beyond "dun nerf meh!", apply.

Write a bit about why you want to join the balance team, write what you think about the current state the combat is in and how you would tackle the problem of the item balance. Don't be shy, there are no wrong answers. Except the obvious stupid ones.

chadz,

I want to join the balance team because I've been starving to help out this game in some form. I think this may be it. I have experience admin'ing games such as UO, Counterstrike, etc. However, I would like to help out as a balancer because I'm a very fair person who can put myself in others' shoes and see where the problems are. I've played all of the builds in this game and have a good understanding of balance issues such as Skey spammings, turtlers, kiters, cav etc. And I hate to see so many items in the game not being used because there are a few in every build that are OP. Allow me to help out and I will greatly appreciate the opportunity.

Thanks
-Brock

[Kafein]

Hi.

Ho shit this time I actually have to write something.

Well, most of the people that regularly visit the balance suggestion hellhole forum probably know my stance on things. I wonder how many downvotes I can rack up from these people by applying here.

I think the role of an item balancer is more about making sure the balance is right at the smallest level, not class v class balance. Things like fixing some weapons being strictly inferior to others in every aspect, some high tier weapons being underused (bec, HGS, side sword ?), or some weapons being too good. I started cRPG back in september 2010 iirc and still play quite a lot so I know when I witness something that is simply wrong, and I also know that baby steps are better. I also value the uniqueness of each weapon, balance should try to avoid turning all items into the same thing. I do have ideas about global balance but I do not believe that is the major point of this role. Global balance issues have to be tackled in conjunction with core mod stuff such as WSE magic, upkeep and gamemodes. Item balancers can only do so much about this (they are not powerless, but usually you can only obtain suboptimal solutions like this). A short list of examples of things I'd like to bring :

• More lethal melee fighting. Native with the levels of armor you usually get in Native seems like a good reference to me. This means either nerfing armor, either making it more rare. And certainly buffing melee damage across the board.
• More skill, less RNG. (less projectile spread and less probjectile velocity for all ranged types (maybe not throwing though))
• Making short weapons more attractive. But also be careful not to create weapons that are simply spammable (like the HBS).
• Making non-cut weapons more interesting for high str 2h, and cut weapons viable for low str 1h.

[Pentecost]

>Why do you want to join the balance team?

I want to bring both transparency and decisive action to the process of item balancing, while checking the influence of lobbyists and reactionaries.

>Write what you think about the current state combat is in

NA and EU have different metagames, and I am not familiar enough with the specifics of the EU metagame to be able to comment on it in an informed way. The NA metagame has some problems, but I think the most serious ones (the efficacy of strength builds compared to agility builds, turn speed change etc) have more to do with game mechanics than item balance. The problems I have identified specifically pertaining to item balance are enumerated below.

>How you would tackle the problem of item balance

I agree with most of what Xol said, although there are several points that I think are worth adding on top of his:

-Balancing items by cost alone is a terrible design philosophy. Due to the existence of the marketplace, all it does is essentially penalize newer players who have little to barter with and allows veteran players who are not mentally handicapped when it comes to trade to use whatever they want almost indefinitely.

-Items should have a cost and difficulty proportional to their actual effectiveness. Throwing Spears should not be significantly more expensive and difficult to use than Heavy Throwing Axes when they are inferior weapons in almost every situation. The Plated Charger should not have a 65k cost with a 4k+ upkeep unless it actually does something that justifies a 65k cost with a 4k+ upkeep. The Wakizashi should not cost over 6 times as much as other weapons that are statistically similar just because one developer hates wapanese.

-Items should be balanced for the normal game modes first and Strategus second, not the other way around. There are several items in the past that have purportedly been made nearly useless because they were too effective for their cost in Strategus; this is a horribly policy considering that a plurality of the player base is not involved with Strategus in a meaningful way/at all.

-Armor needs a major rework. Heavy armor is counterproductive to wear unless you are a high strength build or in a Strategus battle. Heirloomed medium armor with heavy gloves and a heavy helmet is too effective for its cost, weight, and wpf penalty compared to heavy armor. Light armor should be better than it is.

-Increases in armor become more effective the more armor you have, when it should really be the other way around. Tydeus has previously proposed lowering the maximum amount of armor obtainable in order to fix this, but I actually think diminishing returns for higher armor values would be a better solution in the long run. Going from 20-30 armor should do more for your overall survivability than going from 60->70 armor, in other words.

-The normal Crossbow is too effective, especially when masterworked and used with +3 Steel Bolts. It's accurate even with no wpf if you can aim decently, does tremendous damage, and doesn't prevent you from carrying around a longsword or greatsword in the way that any of the better bows do.

-The internal balance of throwing is atrocious. No less than 5 weapons (Stones, 4-Point Shuriken, 6-Point Shuriken, Snowflake, Throwing Lance) are situational or only ever used in joke builds. There is little incentive for anyone, whether he is a hybrid or pure thrower, to use things like Javelins or Franciscas over the best-in-slot weapons like War Darts, Jarids, or Heavy Axes. The extra penetration tag assigned to the Heavy Throwing Axes makes them inordinately good against higher armor targets despite the fact that they do cut damage and not pierce or blunt.

-There are too many heirloomed items in general. The reason this is obviously a problem is because items are supposedly balanced around their +0 versions rather than their +3 versions; naturally, this is going to result in many things more powerful than they should be, which in turn makes other things less powerful than they should be. The efficacy of the heirloomed medium armor combination described above is probably the most glaring example of this issue, but it is far from the only one.

-Nerfs should be a last resort rather than a first resort. If at all possible, imbalances in the game should be corrected by improving the effectiveness of competing items rather than making the supposedly unbalanced item nearly worthless, ala the Long Voulge.

>Why should you pick me?

I would bring a different perspective to the table, I think. Many of the other applicants who are serious about becoming an item balancer can claim that they've been playing this mod for three years now. I cannot. While I have played enough that I have a firm grasp of where everything stands relative to everything else and why, I haven't played for so long that I have an investment in any particular playstyle or weapon that would unduly influence my judgment (which is naturally going to happen when you've literally spent years in the same game).

More importantly, I do not hesitate to admit that I am wrong when I have made a mistake. Item balancing is, like any other process of continual improvement, filled with missteps; in light of this, the ability to acknowledge when your designs have gone astray and recognize how to fix them is arguably the most important quality of all for an item balancer to have.

[BarBeQ]

Hi i want to apply for item balance team.

Info:
-i played with alllmost every class and weapon.
-i dont play in any clan or group, so my decisions would only depend on ingame situations rather then someone asking me to change something.
-I have no main class and that means, that i would have no problem nerfing my own current class.
Rather then just changing for my own benefits.

[Sebi_is_Hero]