Heirloom sink

[Torp]

i was going to write a longer thread about this, but i don't really have the time at the moment, and i don't think it is necessary.
The main point is that i think we need some kind of 'heirloom sink' to reduce/limit the amount of heirlooms in the game.
We have a gold sink (upkeep) to make sure we don't just get ridiculous amounts of gold in cRPG, but we are still getting more and more heirlooms. More people play cRPG, everyone retires, yet none of the heirlooms disappear. We have now reached the point where every veteran player has one or more full sets of heirlooms, the main clans' armories are stacked and heirlooms and heirloom points getting more and more common.
At some point, we are going to have to do something about this or heirlooms will just be worthless as everyone will have tons of them and if they don't they'll be able to get whatever they need form the clan armory.
I do not currently have a good solution to the problem, but i strongly believe something eventually has to be done - and we might as well do it now as later.
Of course i don't just want to 'remove' the current heirlooms, but there should be a feature naturally limiting heirlooms.

 - Fallen_kenkyaku

[Miwiw]

What is wrong about more heirlooms? Price sink? If it's easy to get heirlooms, and if that counts for everyone, what's wrong about it?

[Torp]

Well it would result in heirlooms no longer being special and eventually you'd reach a point where it would just be another barrier to new players as they would be the only ones not playing in heirloomed gear - and in the end we'd have a situation where we might as well just remove heirlooms all together and increase the stats of all items - it would have the same effect (now i know this scenario is rather radical and in the far-away future, but we're getting closer and closer)

[donib]

Arent looms a bit overrated, imagine everyone has looms, then the effect of having looms is suspended.

If you fight each other with a +3 sword or a 0 sword, if you both have it, what is the point? Only the newer, and less hardcore people are propably in a disadvantage compared to the people who play this mod from the very begin and have probably all items loomed.

It is only some sort of reward system in this game imo, nothing more. Actually i was just looking what weapon to loom, but then i think, what is really the point of looming mace x for that aditional 3 damage, or increase in weight so you have more knockdown chance.

Looming armor is also stupid for only that +5, the netto body armor you can have with loom armor is 10 and that only seems like a big deal in very high armor values.

So far i thought only horses are probably worthy of looming, all the other stuf is just getting that tiny bit of edge in battle, nothing more.

If this was my game, i would have redesigned this aspect in the game completely.

[Miwiw]

I think it is a bit late to talk about this now. Actually I don't see heirlooms improving that much.

Armor looms give you 10 body armor, 5 leg armor and 5 head armor more (another 5 head armor if you use a +3 gothic plate with bevor ). But more armor isn't always better as probably everyone notices when getting shot by high level archers and crossbowmen, or by any other class actually.
Weapons dont change that much either, but of course every bit counts and all together if everything is loomed, you of course got some advantage, but that also counts for a higher level. And in the end, skill is more important and new players will always be dying first.

[Torp]

Arent looms a bit overrated, imagine everyone has looms, then the effect of having looms is suspended.

If you fight each other with a +3 sword or a 0 sword, if you both have it, what is the point? Only the newer, and less hardcore people are propably in a disadvantage compared to the people who play this mod from the very begin and have probably all items loomed.

It is only some sort of reward system in this game imo, nothing more. Actually i was just looking what weapon to loom, but then i think, what is really the point of looming mace x for that aditional 3 damage, or increase in weight so you have more knockdown chance.

Looming armor is also stupid for only that +5, the netto body armor you can have with loom armor is 10 and that only seems like a big deal in very high armor values.

So far i thought only horses are probably worthy of looming, all the other stuf is just getting that tiny bit of edge in battle, nothing more.

If this was my game, i would have redesigned this aspect in the game completely.

well this is pretty much also my point - when everyone has looms the only thing they do is make it harder for newcomers.
And i personally believe heirlooms make quite a difference when you have a full set - the speed is noticeable, the damage can mean the difference between and 3 and 4 hit kill, and fully heirloomed armor can easily have you survive 2 arrows more before going down. put that all together and it's pretty significant.

[Miwiw]

Isn't it actually the other way round? If everyone got his looms and maybe even more, the prices sink. They already did a nice sink during the last year. 1,5kk+ the last year, now its 1,1kk+ and sometimes less.
LPs prices went down too, not that much though but 450k - 500k is a difference to last year.

+1 items are available for 300-400k, no one should or is paying more. And at the same time you get a +3 for 2 LP and 200k quite often. The more rare looms are more expensive of course. But getting and buying a Horn Bow or Danish Greatsword is like no problem anymore.

I don't think that new players have it as "hard" to get looms now as anyone had back when they were invented, or until now. Makes sense heh?

[Malaclypse]

Like others have said it seems a bit late to bring this up now. In terms of melee weapons, looms help, but all the base weapons are about as viable as the heirloomed versions. The only places heirloom stacking is really felt is in Body Armor (Gloves, Chest) and in Bows/Xbows (looms to both Arrows/Bows Crossbows/Bolts which add a lot more benefits per heirloom than melee and are used in tandem).

[Jarold]

I don't have any heirlooms and I don't feel like it would make much of a difference in my playstyle or k/d if I had them. It really only helps armor cutchers, crossbowman, and horses to a noticeable difference.

[Carthan]

Sure heirlooms are helpfull and fairly difficult to get, especially as a new player.
But in the end it comes down to skill, and even I had to admit that nothing was better training than fighting a loomcrutch while I was gen 1.

[no_rules_just_play]

this is not how economy works...

[zagibu]

A loom sink. Not a bad idea. Maybe the devs should think about some aesthetical fluff. Let's say, if you loomed a +3 once more, it would turn back into a +0, but with a flashier texture. You could then loom it up again to +3. Maybe this could happen several times.

Or, we could introduce another tier of "legendary" items. The devs could introduce legendary weapon parts for each weapon, that you could get by destroying a +3 item. Combine 3 of the parts and get a +4 weapon. Note that the parts would be weapon specific, so you'd need to destroy 3 masterwork katanas to get 3 legendary katana pieces.

[Torp]

Of course the prices have sunk as a result of there coming more heirlooms - and if they keep sinking, that merely means more people would get heirlooms which again would make them absolutely useless as everybody has them. We are already seeing that a lot of people arent retirering as they like their build and just play alts for diversity, wwhich results in a bunch of 'high level players' who can just tarde their way to heirlooms - there also has to be an icentive to retire.
And it still does take some time for a new player to grind 3 million gold for a +3 or retire 3 times.
And yes, of course skill matters way more than heirlooms, but there is still no need to cripple new players more than we need to. Heirlooms were meant as a 'bonus' for people who grinded and started over - now it's an everyman item.

[Eugene]

Heirlooms are good in my opinion, as they not only reward dedication to the mod, they encourage players to "achieve" something. It gives new players something to strive for. This was really emphasised when Final_Boss released his heirloom texture pack. I know I would just trade looms around to see how they looked in-game, and that's what kept me playing for a while.

And yes, in regards to the original post, looms are common, which is not a bad thing. They seem to have had a pretty steady price/value over the past year, with only minor fluctuations being in loompoints.

So all-up, a loom-sink would have both, positive and negative effects. It would help balance, as the veteran players wouldn't have such an easy time slaughtering the masses (say if it was a loom limit for a gear set), and make the game more skill-based, however, it would make the game drier in a sense, because if you have a favourite gear set, you won't be able to use it.


And Torp, you have not really mentioned the marketplace. People have the mentality, that why bother with looming gear, when you can trade for it anyway with your current looms? The marketplace this way allows people to use builds, and just trade looms, as opposed to retiring. Kind of seems like a passive loom-sink to me in a sense.

[Rebelyell]

Solution:

chadz gets all gold from gold sink and buys looms from players with that gold
only cheapest one that we have a lot on marketplace, that way chadz will control looms on marketplace and prize of them will go up,
players will have more golld and they will use more expensive eq but gold from upkeep will go back to chadz, solve anything but will reduce amount of looms ingame that is way to high now.