Author Topic: Why exactly is jumping removed?  (Read 2626 times)

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Offline Leesin

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2013, 11:28:14 am »
+2
I am glad they removed the whole jump shooting bullshit, mainly because it was insanely good against cavalry, where as if you are a ranged build and get caught out by cavalry who reaches you, you deserve to be at a disadvantage. Even vs Infantry it should be the same case, it was a part of how "kiting" worked, not so much for xbow of course but I imagine they might all be connected so if bows have to suffer the jumpshot disable, perhaps xbow and throwing do too, maybe they can't seperate the code?. Either way I wouldn't want jumpshot back for xbow if it meant bows got it back too, throwers should also suffer vs cav.

And as a chance to use a cool gif, this is what I wanted to do to those elite jump shooting archers

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Offline Aiyasha

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2013, 11:32:30 am »
0
I am glad they removed the whole jump shooting bullshit, mainly because it was insanely good against cavalry, where as if you are a ranged build and get caught out by cavalry who reaches you, you deserve to be at a disadvantage. Even vs Infantry it should be the same case, it was a part of how "kiting" worked, not so much for xbow of course but I imagine they might all be connected so if bows have to suffer the jumpshot disable, perhaps xbow and throwing do too, maybe they can't seperate the code?. Either way I wouldn't want jumpshot back for xbow if it meant bows got it back too, throwers should also suffer vs cav.

And as a chance to use a cool gif, this is what I wanted to do to those elite jump shooting archers

Yeah, because it takes archers at least four arrows with 6 pd and MW longbow to take down a horse but it takes cav one pass to kill an archer so of course we should just be rooted to the spot as soon as cav gets there since we've clearly fucked up.

I'm pretty sure people won't be happy with archery nerfs until we spawn and are no longer allowed to move.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2013, 04:06:20 pm »
+2
I argue that thrower deserve a little extra in form of a jump-shot since they are always way closer to the fight than any other ranged. Besides kiting never been an issue with thrower. Then there is the very limited ammunition and the lack of accuracy (only reason some throwers are quite accurate is skill!).

All that makes me believe that thrower are a special case and can't be put into the same pot as archer and xbow.


GIVE THROWERS THE JUMP-SHOT BACK!

Pretty please  :oops:

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Offline Thedric

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2013, 04:53:54 pm »
0
Yeah, because it takes archers at least four arrows with 6 pd and MW longbow to take down a horse but it takes cav one pass to kill an archer so of course we should just be rooted to the spot as soon as cav gets there since we've clearly fucked up.

I'm pretty sure people won't be happy with archery nerfs until we spawn and are no longer allowed to move.

And yet EU1 is full of archers, despite all the nerfs. Archers are not supposed to survive a cavalry charge, I mean c'mon, the whole point of cav is to kill archers and they cant do that if youre jumping out of the way and shooting horse/rider in the back. The archers of today are doing pretty good by sticking together on a hill and covering each other from cav charges and small inf groups. Thats the way it should be imho.

Anyway, despite what you think archery is not godmode, you shouldnt be able to fight inf, dodge cav and still do ridiculous damage from a distance.

Offline Aiyasha

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2013, 05:28:30 pm »
0
And yet EU1 is full of archers, despite all the nerfs. Archers are not supposed to survive a cavalry charge, I mean c'mon, the whole point of cav is to kill archers and they cant do that if youre jumping out of the way and shooting horse/rider in the back. The archers of today are doing pretty good by sticking together on a hill and covering each other from cav charges and small inf groups. Thats the way it should be imho.

Anyway, despite what you think archery is not godmode, you shouldnt be able to fight inf, dodge cav and still do ridiculous damage from a distance.

Who decided that archers should be rendered defenseless and die the second cavalry reach them? If the whole point of cav is to counter archers, how come they do so well against infantry too? Doesn't that mean infantry should beat cav every time?

The biggest flaw in your argument, though, is saying that archers are doing good by sticking together. That's part of the problem. Archery has been nerfed to such a point that the only way to remain viable is to cluster together as many as possible and fend off any attackers that way. Meanwhile you've got cav and infantry (especially agility built) that are perfectly capable of playing without the help of anyone else assuming they don't run in to a mob of people.

Unfortunately, archery hasn't been god-mode for several years. Cavalry has always held that torch with the ability to kite with long lances and still remain combat effective when dehorsed.
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Offline Juhanius

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2013, 09:16:19 pm »
0
I can still jump and shoot. It is just matter of tecnique 8-)

Offline Thedric

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2013, 11:03:44 pm »
-1
Who decided that archers should be rendered defenseless and die the second cavalry reach them? If the whole point of cav is to counter archers, how come they do so well against infantry too? Doesn't that mean infantry should beat cav every time?

The biggest flaw in your argument, though, is saying that archers are doing good by sticking together. That's part of the problem. Archery has been nerfed to such a point that the only way to remain viable is to cluster together as many as possible and fend off any attackers that way. Meanwhile you've got cav and infantry (especially agility built) that are perfectly capable of playing without the help of anyone else assuming they don't run in to a mob of people.

Unfortunately, archery hasn't been god-mode for several years. Cavalry has always held that torch with the ability to kite with long lances and still remain combat effective when dehorsed.

I dont know why you always compare yourself to inf and cav  :?  Archers are a support class designed to kill at a distance, not to do cartwheels around cav or duel with inf, ffs youre not legolas. You dont see pikemen running around trying to solo 2h or shielders do you?

Besides, with all that jumping it was virtually impossible to kill archers 1 on 1 as cav (unless you surprise them from behind, which works on every class). You needed something like a warhorse to have a decent chance. Ive had many a horse killed underneath me while learning that lesson.

And archers are not rendered defenseless when faced with cav, you have your 0-slot 1h. In case it escaped you cav are supposed to be effective vs all kinds of inf (except spearmen ofc), since a horse cost 1300+ in upkeep and is vulnerable to archers until that split second moment when it actually reachers you.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2013, 04:38:22 am »
+1
Yeah, because it takes archers at least four arrows with 6 pd and MW longbow to take down a horse but it takes cav one pass to kill an archer so of course we should just be rooted to the spot as soon as cav gets there since we've clearly fucked up.

I usually only use 2-4 arrows on cavalry, 1-2 with headshots, and that's with a rus bow. How many couches or full speed lance thrusts with a following bump do I need on archers in rags? Mostly 2...

Only when cavalry outnumbers archers, they'll stomp them. Otherwise the archers will stomp the cavalry. They both feed of eachother, the numbers and skill of the players decide which one will win.
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Offline Leesin

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2013, 01:09:12 pm »
0
Yeah, because it takes archers at least four arrows with 6 pd and MW longbow to take down a horse but it takes cav one pass to kill an archer so of course we should just be rooted to the spot as soon as cav gets there since we've clearly fucked up.

I'm pretty sure people won't be happy with archery nerfs until we spawn and are no longer allowed to move.

Rooted to the spot? you know you can dodge the horse THEN ready an arrow, I've seen Woodland do it effectively time after time, just because jump shooting is disabled doesn't mean you have to stand on the spot and die. I also never said Archers should be nerfed further did I? as it is right now I feel Archers are as balanced as they have ever been. But yeah, if a cav reaches you in melee range then you deserve to be at a disadvantage, rather than actually still be at an advantage like you were when jump shooting was viable. Being at a disadvantage doesn't always spell death.

Btw it only takes cav one pass to kill you if you aren't aware of your surroundings and are too focused on whatever it is you're shooting at, which is another good reason to play in groups and use communication.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 01:14:05 pm by Leesin »

Offline XyNox

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Re: Why exactly is jumping removed?
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2013, 02:58:02 pm »
-1
Aiyasha is right actually. Cav can faceroll archers in a one on one if they know what they are doing. Archers simply dont have enough mobility now to do anything against it. If you try to do dodge a horse that can cover a 6m area in front of him but you are limited to walk 3m by the time cav is in front of your face, you die. If cav is actually bad enough to miss a run, no problem, he just turns around and tries again.

Exaclty like Aiyasha said, EVERY class is better when piled up with the difference that most classes are still effective on their own. The only way to survive as an archer now adays is when you get inf support who is willing to be glued on your ass the whole round. Needless to say that doesnt happen because they are all just running off enjoying the game without the need to be supported. Jumpshooting is not the real issue here, it is the amateurish dev decision to blanket ban mobility for archers as a whole instead of only adressing those parts that actually needed a rework, i.e. kiting. But since devs dont have to deal with daily ragethreads about archers anymore I hardly expect them to give a fuck about such matters.
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