Linear wpf reduction- Balancing STR builds

[San]

I think the simplest way to balance strength builds is to make wpf reduction linear. It won't nerf most strength builds, only those that neglect all WM AND use very high armor values. I think this is a good first step before other more extreme methods (such as nerfing HP) should be considered.

Proposal:
Currently, effective armor weight is a percentage-based reduction.

My proposed equation: effective_wpf = base_wpf - (effective_armor_weight * (middle_wpf/10))

middle_wpf is what the middleground should be for an average wpf value. Below this value is a WORSE penalty than what we have now. Above is BETTER than what we have now. A pure build can get 146 wpf at 5WM, so a value of 140 or 150 is good imo.


If it is 140, the equation becomes: effective_wpf = base_wpf - (effective_armor_weight * 1.4)


After looking at this thread on  wpf and damage, it seems that damage tapers off at the sub-100 wpf level quite dramatically.

Now here's the thing- STR builds can easily get both bulk and damage without any effort.


High defence:

Strength builds can have high levels of ironflesh. This is not that noticeable (but helpful) at low armor values. At medium levels, it's pretty great/balanced. At the upper end of middle armor and higher, the mixture of ironflesh AND high armor values can make a 3-9 hit for a low HP, high armor foe to 5-16 or even crazier values (using the damage calculator). With looms, many medium armors can reach these high values.

High IF + High armor = much higher defence than the sum of its parts.


WPF reduction hurts everyone else EXCEPT strength builds:

A medium to medium-high level effective weight is 13-17, after that, it begins to escalate (the >14 weight body armors).

With 17 weight, a 172wpf guy loses ~27.9 wpf, while a 111 wpf guy loses around 18. That's a good 9+ lost, equivalent to a full WM point. A point in WM would give a pure build roughly the same amount of points each time, but then it gets penalized MORE for increasing it. I think it's a double penalization for the already exponential wpf curve.

With my proposed equation, 17 weight will deduct 23.8. The difference seems small, but that ~6 difference is equivalent to 1/4 or 1/3 of a PS. Heavy armor effective weight can reach values of 22+...

STR builds are rewarded for not having higher wpf due to less reduction from armor, when it should be build-neutral.


How this will affect current builds

- Strength Hybrids will be minimally hurt. 
- Strength builds with high armor will be hurt unless they put a few points into WM (not much..).
- The very highest weight plate would be more unappealing since weight jumps dramatically. Plate prices should probably go down a bit, since most would be using heavy-medium armor instead.

- or + Medium armor will be even more popular by pretty much all builds (incl. ranged).

+ Agi hybrids will receive a boost depending on how they distribute their points. It will be better to equalize wpf than having a low wpf sidearm, though.
+ If you wear light-medium or lighter, even strength builds won't notice a difference
+ Doesn't unfairly punish those who invest in WM.
+ Most builds buffed/have more freedom.
+ Very simple change.

[Emotion]

FIRST!

[EyeBeat]

They are already changing wpf to make it so you do not gain so much on leveling. 

That is all that needs to be done.

And I disagree.  Hybrids need to be nerfed.

[Konrax]

I honestly think part of the problem is the base speed of 2h weapons in general.

[Piok]

Just nerf hybrids even more. High WM stacking scums

[San]

It's not that much of a difference of points for those above 100, but it will hurt the 50-90 wpf hybrids and help out mid-high wpf. People who really want to hybrid will have to commit a bit more.

For example, my character is 131 in 1h and 96 in poles and I wear medium-heavy armor. If I wanted to use both, it would be better to be closer to 120-120 or something.

[CrazyCracka420]

yeah at 6wm, at level 30 I can have 2 skills at 118/119 each.

[Torost]

I left archery and leveled a dedicated thrower.. if you fsk around with the wpf without adjusting the stupid PT/PD req. you will break my char.. again!

[Ostulor]

I left archery and leveled a dedicated thrower.. if you fsk around with the wpf without adjusting the stupid PT/PD req. you will break my char.. again!

If implemented, the Devs would probably give everyone a free WPF respec.

Good idea San.

[Tydeus]

Wasn't the wpf reduction from weight recently increased?

[San]

^I was using this equation from the game mechanics thread.

Code: [Select]

Armor weight
Armor weight modified proficiency = base proficiency * (1 - 0.01 * effective armor weight)
Effective armor weight = 2*head armor weight + body armor weight + leg armor weight + 4*hand armor weight - 10
(Source: WaltF4, updated 31.7.2012 based on the new formula)

From what I can tell, updated changes made head armor less important and gloves more important in reduction. I assumed this is the current equation.

The effective armor weight is the % reduction of your wpf


(wpf - 13*pt - 14*pd) * (1 - effective weight / 100)

which is equivalent to

Code: [Select]

wpf - wpf * (effective weight as a percentage)

I want to change that second wpf on the right to a constant  deemed a good average wpf. I think 140 is lenient (my choice) and 150 strict.

Code: [Select]

wpf - (C/10) * (effective weight)
If your wpf is below C, you're nerfed. If you're above, you're buffed. If you are relatively close to C (within +/- 12 or so), it's virtually no difference.

[Phew]

San, I think it was you that suggested removing "free" wpf from leveling, and replacing it with wpf from agility. I liked this idea a lot, since strength gets both damage and health, but right now agility only gets run speed as a passive bonus. And the run speed bonus is nerfed by weight, whereas the hit point bonus from strength is actually buffed by weight (armor).

[San]

Others have suggested it as well, I mostly supported it and made other kooky suggestions like lowering STR HP to every other point instead while buffing IF. If IF increases hp by 1 for every other STR, IF needs to be +4 to hp (buffs hp at max levels of IF, ~5more hp) or +3 (globally lowers HP).

I'm pretty sure the staff are aware of some of these sentiments with wpf, and they have their own plans for what they want to do with it. This is separate from messing with the wpf curve, so it may be easier to implement if they like the idea. This would be a light nerf to strength builds/ buff to other builds compared to more harsh actions that may occur.

I would like other skills to have their own importance compared to ATH/PS, otherwise they're useless and might as well go 24/24 8ath 8ps..

[Tydeus]

San, I think it was you that suggested removing "free" wpf from leveling, and replacing it with wpf from agility. I liked this idea a lot, since strength gets both damage and health, but right now agility only gets run speed as a passive bonus. And the run speed bonus is nerfed by weight, whereas the hit point bonus from strength is actually buffed by weight (armor).

Formulas are being looked at that give wpp per point of agility. We should probably just focus on the wpp requirement curve and then wpp gain formulas before wpf weight penalty formulas. This way we can focus on getting the wpp curve right and use other things to help balance around the margins.