What needs to be changed with version 0.220

[Punisher]

Only problem with 2H stab is that it was overnerfed, new animation + severe pierce damage nerf. The effect would be it will soon be completely gone, as there is currently no reason to chose a stab over a swing attack. It was indeed stupidly overpowered before, but I don't think making it completely useless is the best option. People will simply adjust and use high cut damage weapons instead, the Claymore for example has a high potential of becoming the new German Greatsword and the side-swing spam will replace the stab spam.

[Phyrex]

I'm glad about the thrust nerf for 2handers. Yes, not that many people could use spinthrust effectively (though more and more people were learning it), and yes, you can just block down. But imo it made 2handed fights look retarded, I'm glad its gone. Seeing every 2hander run around stab spamming was really silly.

It also makes other 2handers more viable (the top few 2handed swords aren't automatically the best weapons in the category anymore).

More variety, less stab spam fights. Can only be a good thing.

Spinthrust is not limited to 2-hand only, any weapon with thrust can do spinthrust. Ever seen a good pikeman fight up close with an opponent? Guess what he does? Yeah... spinthrust.

And no, it doesn't make other 2-handers more viable, what's the reason to pick a 2-handed weapon when polearm can do that and everything else far more better?

[Lanic0r]

Agreed.

Agreed. (but maybe its the only way to nerf 2handers with this sliced animation)

[Nihtgenga]

Spinthrust is not limited to 2-hand only, any weapon with thrust can do spinthrust. Ever seen a good pikeman fight up close with an opponent? Guess what he does? Yeah... spinthrust.

And no, it doesn't make other 2-handers more viable, what's the reason to pick a 2-handed weapon when polearm can do that and everything else far more better?

that!

[Spawny]

Spinthrust is not limited to 2-hand only, any weapon with thrust can do spinthrust. Ever seen a good pikeman fight up close with an opponent? Guess what he does? Yeah... spinthrust.

And no, it doesn't make other 2-handers more viable, what's the reason to pick a 2-handed weapon when polearm can do that and everything else far more better?

Tiny difference: With the right movement a 2h thrust can be made to look like a right to left swing. You could even do a right left swing feint and perform a thrust attack and you could hardly tell the difference in animation.

Multiple times I've been killed by a 2h thrust when I was up in the guys face, blocked the first thrust and swung immediatly after, only to get killed by the second thrust.

That was not possible with 1h or polearms.

[mulas]

Just make Character progress worth while, instead of shrinking all aspects to nothing.

1) Hybrid class 2h + bow can now only carry 1 bag of arrows. I think those people need a free stats reset so they can spec 1h and bow.
Heck, there are so many big changes, that I believe we all need a stats reset, my shield I suddenly has higher difficulty, now I can't use it, sucks to those who has tier 3 shield.

2) Weapons prices are just too high, I try to play naked with my Tempered Danish Greatsword, and most times I still  lose money faster than gain.

3) Most  2h swords stab  pierce damage now has similar dmg as 1h swords stab dmg. That's just rediculous. Change that back to pre-patch.

4) Some weapons like War Cleaver and Great Sword disappear in inventory, and when you buy new ones, you only lose money.

[Phyrex]

Tiny difference: With the right movement a 2h thrust can be made to look like a right to left swing. You could even do a right left swing feint and perform a thrust attack and you could hardly tell the difference in animation.

Multiple times I've been killed by a 2h thrust when I was up in the guys face, blocked the first thrust and swung immediatly after, only to get killed by the second thrust.

That was not possible with 1h or polearms.

Yes, but that's only a "learn2play" issue, no good dueller/player will ever be fooled by that, it's a thrust and the player will be able to spot it immediately.

Second, I semi-agree, I usually did this, attack from any direction and follow up by a quick thrust(Worked on people who weren't ready for it, similiar to hiltslash spam.), which was only possible due to the animation(Not the native one, Lazlo's.) being so fast. However it did not work on experienced players who attack back directly after I did the thrust. That's a common combat mechanic involving all weapons and attack direction, if you attack me twice and I feint inbetwen I get hit.

[Lanic0r]

3) Most  2h swords stab  pierce damage now has similar dmg as 1h swords stab dmg. That's just rediculous. Change that back to pre-patch.

Is a 2h more sharp or what?

[EponiCo]

Spinthrust is not limited to 2-hand only, any weapon with thrust can do spinthrust. Ever seen a good pikeman fight up close with an opponent? Guess what he does? Yeah... spinthrust.

And no, it doesn't make other 2-handers more viable, what's the reason to pick a 2-handed weapon when polearm can do that and everything else far more better?

The pike has no (side-)swings at all and a ridiculously low speed, while it's true that it can be used just as silly it's a fairly limited weapon. Noone's going to buy it just so he can get into a fight 1 on 1 and spinthrust.

[Lanic0r]

The pike has no (side-)swings at all and a ridiculously low speed, while it's true that it can be used just as silly it's a fairly limited weapon. Noone's going to buy it just so he can get into a fight 1 on 1 and spinthrust.

Agreed.
Ha, if 2h becomes more and more "underpowered" maybe i will switch to it. I´m no bundle of sticks, searching for the next OP waepon. Have fun Phyrex 

[Phyrex]

Is a 2h more sharp or what?

Used by two hands, being way longer and broader or what?

The pike has no (side-)swings at all and a ridiculously low speed, while it's true that it can be used just as silly it's a fairly limited weapon. Noone's going to buy it just so he can get into a fight 1 on 1 and spinthrust.

Pike is merely an example, there are other polearms with thrust, which they of course thrust with at facehug range which is only possible due to them being able to spinthrust.

[BD_Guard_Bane]

Only problem with 2H stab is that it was overnerfed, new animation + severe pierce damage nerf. The effect would be it will soon be completely gone, as there is currently no reason to chose a stab over a swing attack. It was indeed stupidly overpowered before, but I don't think making it completely useless is the best option. People will simply adjust and use high cut damage weapons instead, the Claymore for example has a high potential of becoming the new German Greatsword and the side-swing spam will replace the stab spam.

I've seen people using thrust effectively since the patch, its just more of a backstab/unaware opponent type move.

Spinthrust is not limited to 2-hand only, any weapon with thrust can do spinthrust. Ever seen a good pikeman fight up close with an opponent? Guess what he does? Yeah... spinthrust.

And no, it doesn't make other 2-handers more viable, what's the reason to pick a 2-handed weapon when polearm can do that and everything else far more better?

Sure, its possible with other weapons. But at least one category of weapons its more difficult now. And it wasn't just spinthrusting that was a problem, it was also the damage and effectiveness of a 2handed thrust over any other type of attack - which is why most 2handers fights were stab spamming fights. And it was stupidly effective against cavalry, too.

As for polearms compared to 2handers, I'm not sure. Polearms have always had a multi-purpose ability that 2handers lack (cav, anti cav, shieldbreakers, range, good animations for blocking - though this might be a subjective thing, polearm stun etc).
Personally I only ever chose 2handers over polearms because of personal taste - I prefer how they look and handle. In my experience post patch my bastard sword is still easily capable of fighting against polearm users, so I don't really see a problem with the categories being imbalanced.

If you think polearms are better now, just make a polearm character instead.

[Lanic0r]

If you think polearms are better now, just make a polearm character instead.

As i said. Have fun phy

[Phyrex]

I've seen people using thrust effectively since the patch, its just more of a backstab/unaware opponent type move.

Sure, its possible with other weapons. But at least one category of weapons its more difficult now. And it wasn't just spinthrusting that was a problem, it was also the damage and effectiveness of a 2handed thrust over any other type of attack - which is why most 2handers fights were stab spamming fights. And it was stupidly effective against cavalry, too.

As for polearms compared to 2handers, I'm not sure. Polearms have always had a multi-purpose ability that 2handers lack (cav, anti cav, shieldbreakers, range, good animations for blocking - though this might be a subjective thing, polearm stun etc).
Personally I only ever chose 2handers over polearms because of personal taste - I prefer how they look and handle. In my experience post patch my bastard sword is still easily capable of fighting against polearm users, so I don't really see a problem with the categories being imbalanced.

If you think polearms are better now, just make a polearm character instead.

I haven't been able to use thrust effectively, who is this player you're speaking about? Why would you want to thrust an unaware player or backstab him when you can do an overhead and do twice the amount of damage? As a surprise attack it's absolutely horrible, a player will see it coming a mile away due to being ridiculously slow.

Yes, there has to be a difference between Polearms and Two-Handers, but what is that? I've personally always seen two-handers as the fast, medium-damage, good range type of weapon. Now it's nothing of that since polearm has it all.

So... you're suggesting we'll just throw balance out the window? 

[Keshian]

I'm glad about the thrust nerf for 2handers. Yes, not that many people could use spinthrust effectively (though more and more people were learning it), and yes, you can just block down. But imo it made 2handed fights look retarded, I'm glad its gone. Seeing every 2hander run around stab spamming was really silly.

It also makes other 2handers more viable (the top few 2handed swords aren't automatically the best weapons in the category anymore).

More variety, less stab spam fights. Can only be a good thing.

Fully agree, in the middle-ages swords were primarily slashing weapons and instead everyone was walking around with their swords in stab ready position like some bad conan movie.  Now you actually get real duels, still very effective and not some high dependency on lolstab feature to win.  learn to manual block better and you won't be so dependent on lolstabbing, you block a polearm, move in close and slash them, pretty simple.  I still see a lot of people using the stab effectivel in na duel server and battle servers.

My questions are regarding the hotfix, not the patch:
Also, everyone complained about cavalry not having lollancing capability and maybe it was too extreme, but now they have same capability as pre-patch and are dominating a lot of battlefields with the longest polearms (most people not carrying only pikes as dropped when sheathed and very tough to melee with 1v1) and far more maneuverability.  Then people also complained about archery aim and the hotfix reverted it back to pre-patch aiming which made longbow crappy again.  In both these cases, why the full reversion back and not some middle ground because they both were viable issues?????

(And for those complaining about archery aim, keep in mind that archers now have only 15 bodkin arrows to 12 steel bolts and with longbow/warbow can only carry 1 stack unless foolish enough to go with no melee weapon, so they have to be as accurate as an xbowman whose reticule doesn't change and can hold a shot forever, while archers reticules vary wildly).