Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG

[Lethwin Far Seeker]

You must be very bad at the game, all you need to do is stab and the chances are you stabbed faster then him out ranged him stabbed through the horse damaging it and him plus cancelling his attack and all you suffer is a bump. 2handers can stand up to cav... atleast any two hander with half a brain can fight cav and win.

Jona isn't bad, I expect he just hasn't realized the anti cav properties of 2h.

[Tom Cruise]

This is my general overview of the melee weapon classes (imo):

1h

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1h has superior base speed (based on the weapon stats). There animations are just as fast as 2h. The only difference is that the 2h side swings are superior to things such as castoring. They have a vast array of weapons and weapon types, such as cut, pierce, blunt, bonus against shields, secondary modes (which some have cut and pierce or blunt and pierce). Back all of these up with shields and that is a deadly class. You are now able to stop the endless barrage of pew pew coming at you as well as stop melee attacks, even multiple attacks at once from multiple directions, something not possible with other classes.The only real disadvantage of the 1h is the reach, in which case for most of the weapons (primarily the swords just because they are longer) aren't even that much smaller then other classes. The right swing of 1h gives a very significant increase in reach, which can rival the 2h's. The left swing although not getting as much reach is just as effective, it hits with a very wide radius (as well as hitting next to the person) and is very fast. Now add a hoplite into the fray and that is a very strong support class. They still have their shield and now have superior reach (to most people). A lot of people carry a 1h along with them as well.

So is 1h really under powered? I don't think so

2h

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2h has some of the hardest hitting weapons (based on weapon stats). Mainly cut weapons (mostly swords). Not alot of variety in weapons (only one with pierce swings (the morningstar) and only a few with blunt) Yes the higher tier 2h's have alot of base damage, but keep in mind that is cut damage. Heavily armored units (which is a large majority of the community) it is not nearly as effective as something with pierce or blunt, as well as someone with a shield we have to whack at them for days to break it or wait for an opening the strike. If you choose to use something good against a shield such as an axe, they are actually shorter then most the 1h's. 2h is a very effective class but can easily be beaten, especially with the absence of a shield, they can just get lit up by ranged all day, which they do (which I do ).

Polearm

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Polearms are a very unique class and have the most diversity imo. They are able to compete with most any 2h 1v1 (are able to castor just as easy as 2h), they have a large variety of support weapons (such as the pike or longspear), they have all of the different types of damage (cut, blunt, pierce) and much like the 1h they have weapons that have a secondary mode which can do two types of damage, a large majority of them do bonus against shields, they are have a lot of reach, are able to go hoplite if you choose which again, stops all of the pew pew, great diversity of weapons (whether you want to directly engage the enemy, support your allies, hoplite, a combination of these, etc.) Polearm is a very effective class.

I have played as all of these classes with many different weapons and different builds, and have had fun with them and was effective with all of them. cRPG is very balanced right now. Just because you see "cav and ranged" dominating right now doesn't mean anything needs a balance or buff. It's a common trend to have one class dominating the servers. It could be Polearms next week for all we know. There is only a few problems we need to fix, such as the force field of shields and other minor things.

There I'm done ranting

[Hunter_the_Honourable]

Only reason there are a lot of cav and ranged right now is mostly because the "team balance" is awful and tends to stack cav and ranged on to either the same team or ranged on one and cav on the other. Fixing the balance should even out the amount of ranged and cav imo. But thats for another topic 

[_GTX_]

As for the "2handers MUST be the supreme melee class" err, I have to disagree. someone who is a pure two hander should not be way better then someone who is a pure 1hander or polearm, each class should have an advantage and disadvantage

E.G the two hander might be the faster one the 1hander has a shield and the polearm more reach. It should not be the two hander does the most damage and is the fastest.

U didnt understand much of what they typed earlier, did u? This was all explained earlier. Did u not read it, or did u just ignore it/not understand it?.

Since when is a 2h faster than a 1h? People like kinngrimm depends 100% on just being too quick for people to block, since he does NOTHING fancy at all. He just feints 1-2 times and hits u, maybe he spams a few left swings. I dont seem to recall any 2h being able to do that.

Only reason there are a lot of cav and ranged right now is mostly because the "team balance" is awful and tends to stack cav and ranged on to either the same team or ranged on one and cav on the other. Fixing the balance should even out the amount of ranged and cav imo. But thats for another topic 

Funny how the cav and ranged team is fine with that, while the infantry is not rly enjoying it. According to what u say, 2h is superior in every way, yet they are getting their asses kicked. Im sry, but it doesnt seem to add up sir.

[Hunter_the_Honourable]

GTX just as a heads up from after this post I wont reply to you because well.... You try and work it out. and happy new year coward 

[Lethwin Far Seeker]

1h

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1h has superior base speed (based on the weapon stats). There animations are just as fast as 2h.No.  Weapon length has a drastic effect on effective speed and don't get me started about all the Skey 2hers out there taking advantage of it.  And I'd say the base speed stats are about even.  When using a shield though, that speed is significantly reduced FYI The only difference is that the 2h side swings are superior to things such as castoring. They have a vast array of weapons and weapon types, such as cut, pierce, blunt, bonus against shields, secondary modes (which some have cut and pierce or blunt and pierce). Back all of these up with shields and that is a deadly class. You are now able to stop the endless barrage of pew pew coming at you as well as stop melee attacks, even multiple attacks at once from multiple directions, something not possible with other classes.The only real disadvantage of the 1h is the reach, in which case for most of the weapons (primarily the swords just because they are longer) aren't even that much smaller then other classes. The right swing of 1h gives a very significant increase in reach, which can rival the 2h's. The left swing although not getting as much reach is just as effective, it hits with a very wide radius (as well as hitting next to the person) and is very fast. Now add a hoplite into the fray and and it still takes 3 to take out one armoured 2h str crutcher that is a very strong support class. They still have their shield and now have superior reach (to most people). A lot of people carry a 1h along with them as well.

So is 1h really under powered? I don't think so

2h

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2h has some of the hardest hitting weapons (based on weapon stats). Mainly cut weapons (mostly swords).Greatswords'flamberge, Morningstar, lol OP great mauls, there ya go  High cut, high pierce, and high blunt with crushthrough as a bonus Not alot of variety in weapons (only one with pierce swings (the morningstar) and only a few with blunt) Yes the higher tier 2h's have alot of base damage, but keep in mind that is cut damage.Except the 38 pierce morningstar, long ironmace, etc) Heavily armored units (which is a large majority of the community) it is not nearly as effective as something with pierce or blunt, as well as someone with a shield we have to whack at them for days to break it or wait for an opening the strike.Why cut through shield when you can just dart to the side of the shielder and clip right through his shield edge!  Or, if that takes too much effort, just S key him to death If you choose to use something good against a shield such as an axe, they are actually shorter then most the 1h's. 2h is a very effective class but can easily be beaten, especially with the absence of a shield, they can just get lit up by ranged all day, which they do (which I do ) I didn't, work on your dodging skills.  It's pretty easy without encumbrance of shield .

Polearm

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Polearms are a very unique class and have the most diversity imo. They are able to compete with most any 2h 1v1 Excent for their range means nothing when the 2h get in close with his superior weapon speed.  That and only a few of the polearms have a chance of out ranging the 2h thrust due to the insane reach extender the 2h thrust has (are able to castor just as easy as 2h), they have a large variety of support weapons (such as the pike or longspear), they have all of the different types of damage (cut, blunt, pierce) and much like the 1h they have weapons that have a secondary mode which can do two types of damage, a large majority of them do bonus against shields, they are have a lot of reach, are able to go hoplite Did someone say hoplite?  Excuse me while I block down for invincibility lolololif you choose which again, stops all of the pew pew, great diversity of weapons (whether you want to directly engage the enemy, support your allies, hoplite, a combination of these, etc.) Polearm is a very effective class.

I have played as all of these classes with many different weapons and different builds, and have had fun with them and was effective with all of them. cRPG is very balanced right now. Just because you see "cav and ranged" dominating right now doesn't mean anything needs a balance or buff. It's a common trend to have one class dominating the servers. It could be Polearms next week for all we know. There is only a few problems we need to fix, such as the force field of shields and other minor things.

There I'm done ranting

[_GTX_]

GTX just as a heads up from after this post I wont reply to you because well.... You try and work it out. and happy new year coward 

Yeah end it with coward... mature. I am so sry for speaking to u in that way, clearly i went over the line. This is also seen in this thread: ''Remove thrust stun for poles'', which clearly shows me being the worst.

Remember.... dont answer ;).

[no_rules_just_play]

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So I've been playing cRPG for a while (currently lvl 31 8th gen, a 2nd gen alt and a 3rd gen alt) and it has to be my favourite multiplayer mod.  Big surprise.  I'd like to address some elements in it's current state that I would like addressed.  Whether the dev team has any interest in this or not, I hope it will at least give insight to interested players.
So here's what I have to say.

Reduce general 2h weapon speeds by about 2-3 speed
I actually practice longsword\greatsword techniques and I can tell you, you can't swing them THAT fast.  I spent several generations as a 2h.  With am 18\21 2h build I could spam even the flamberge like it was a toothpick.  An extremely high damage toothpick.  I know what it's like to be 2h.  I had lots of fun with it, but it has gotten to a point where it is unrealistic and unfair to people playing other classes.  Don't believe me?  Try playing a gen as a shielder or even polearm.  It's not near as easy.  But maybe you're just one of those players who is pro at everything?  Well at least look at recent "game balances".  Polestun removed.  Archery nerfed.  Shielders kick like grandma, etc.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but when was the last time 2h got nerfed?  A while back I thought some 2h weapons got a damage boost.  Oh joy...  If you still don't believe 2h is unbalanced, do a little survey of players.  60% of players are 2hers at the least, wonder why?

Eliminate 2h thrust exploit (aka lolstab)
If the devs heed anything on here I hope it's this.  It's a broken mechanic that is simply absurd.  If it has happened to you then you already are nodding.  If you use it, then shame on you.  For any reading who don't know what I'm talking about, its something like this.  You are fighting some guy in a duel.  He has a big long great sword, so you get in up close.  You are just about to start dicing when he points his sword down.  His sword is literally inside of your character, who cares, if he thrusts he will obviously glance\whiff right?  Nope, you take the full impact of the pierce damage.  Sucks to duel a 2her eh?  That or the 2h thrust which goes way over the left side of your shoulder, miss? No, it someone curves right back in and now you are black barred at the least from taking a 2h thrust "to the face".

Increase half-swording damage and speed by about 3-5 and switch to 2h weapon proficiency
As a practitioner of Historical European Martial Arts and someone with some common sense, half-swording as Talhoffer called it shouldn't be that pathetic.  It should be somewhat slower yes and the cut reduced but not THAT much.  Also, and perhaps more importantly, knights were trained to use their weapon in every aspect.  If they encountered a heavily armoured opponent, it only made sense to use half swording techniques to punch through that armour or disarm him.  To do this, he didn't have to use a completely foreign method of fighting (switch to a different proficiency), this was something he would have trained for and would be quite natural.  Edit: Just an idea, rather than have an inferior yet identical right to left swing in halfswording, reverse the entire position of the sword, holding the blade while using the hilt and pommel as a blunt weapon, not sure if it's possible, just an idea.
Edit #2  Give halfswording overhand stab (the same that would be prospectively be given to pikes as mentioned later on).  Why?  Look at the manuscripts.  It was possibly the most common halfswording position.

Increase archery and crossbow damage significantly
Let's face it, when that steel quarrel (crossbow bolt) comes smashing through your cuirass, tearing through the layers of mail and leather, and sinks its way into your chest, probably destroying any number of vital organs, you should be dead, and not walking on thinking about how much you hate Desire, who spent 5 or more seconds to load that thing and generations to master the skill of aiming it.  As big as that number is, it's obsolete when you compare it to the combination of power draw and bows (which have a much greater rate of fire) and the godawful 7 power throw throwing spears which can actually do more damage than the arbalest. Yeah.  Regarding bows, while not quite as absurd as the crossbows, admit it doesn't make sense to see some strength crutching 2her stroll by with 5 arrows sticking out of him, and he's still at half health.  Increasing archery damage would be more realistic, and, what do ya know, balance the game by curbing the big picture effectiveness of 2hers.

Eliminate shield clipping
I don't know if this actually can be solved, but countless times I have watched a blade magically go through the edge of my shield simply because of the targets position.  "Getting around the shield" shouldn't be quite so easy.  This would be accomplished by a realistic shield with collisional mesh properties.

Remove "magnetic"/"force field" shielding affect
This is a big one.  Of course arrows that were heading toward's your face or foot being magically drawn to your shield dramatically increases your survival rate, but it completely removes the higher elements of skilled archery.  It has been argued that this is essential for game balance.  After all, who wants to be the first person going up the ladder with no hope of getting off said ladder except as a corpse with arrows bristling from your eye sockets and toes?  Well that's why you don't want to be the first person going up the ladder, because it sucks.  Fortunately, we have this awesome thing called a siege tower!  So if the defence on the walls is to thick, attacker's can use that (instead of just strolling up the ladder and clearing any resistance with a single great mauler).  Also, implementing this will bring back more variety.  In a siege, the kite, heater, and board (pavise) shields might finally get a chance to shine again rather than being eternally in the shadow of the statistically superior round shields.  If nothing were done to curb the unbalanced 2h, this at least would bring back enough archers to make players think twice before choosing to go with the most exploitable class in the mod.

Add overhand thrust to spear and shield
End the tyranny of Block Down for Invincibility!  This is kind of a common sense thing.  More realistic, adds variety to game.  Go outside with a broom stick and a trashcan lid and see how it feels!  I could rant on this more but why don't you just watch this video.  Viable animation example in Vikingr mod.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY3GtNoxAdM

Change overhand swing on 2 directional polearms (excepting awlpikes and halberds) to overhand thrust (animations in Fire&Sword)
Again working against the fore said tyranny.  Aside from being historically accurate, realistic, and a lot less stupid looking, imagine- pikes would actually be a force to be reckoned.  Pikers\Longspears would still be a support class, but it would make them less absurdly helpless against someone spamming the down block.  So cRPG isn't With Fire & Sword?  The over hand thrust (using a spear) was also used in viking shieldwalls FYI, and again, common sense.

Thank you for reading my somewhat lengthy monologue on what I think should be fixed, added, or removed to cRPG.

Finnian Tiercel, the Gaunt, Captain of the King's Guard of the Hounds of Chulainn (there are many variations in the spelling, stop griefing me Dazed),  Son of Lethwin Far Seeker

edit: will read it tomorrow :P

[Lethwin Far Seeker]

U didnt understand much of what they typed earlier, did u? This was all explained earlier. Did u not read it, or did u just ignore it/not understand it?.

Since when is a 2h faster than a 1h? People like kinngrimm depends 100% on just being too quick for people to block, since he does NOTHING fancy at all. He just feints 1-2 times and hits u, maybe he spams a few left swings. I dont seem to recall any 2h being able to do that.Funny how the cav and ranged team is fine with that, while the infantry is not rly enjoying it. According to what u say, 2h is superior in every way, yet they are getting their asses kicked. Im sry, but it doesnt seem to add up sir.

GTX,  your sloppy typos, text talk, bad diction, and terrible sentence structure make it very hard to discern what you are trying to say, but what I did gather is that you do not have enough reason, knowledge, or experience to be making a valid argument on this topic.  Think on it more before you type.

[Mlekce]

This is biggest bunch of crap and QQ i ever read in one thread.

[_GTX_]

GTX,  your sloppy typos, text talk, bad diction, and terrible sentence structure make it very hard to discern what you are trying to say, but what I did gather is that you do not have enough reason, knowledge, or experience to be making a valid argument on this topic.  Think on it more before you type.

OMG, dont hurt my grammar. We all know this is a typing contest.

Yes, u for sure have good reasons. The one in this one is... ding ding... ur opinion. So i guess u can just ban people from a public discussion? U do rly seem smart urself.

Plz dont hurt my grammar again, i will start crying soon.

Edit: I am rly trying my hardest at the grammar, as it is clearly seen. I have a custom title, but that grammar thing rly hurt me!

This is biggest bunch of crap and QQ i ever read in one thread.

JACKPOT!

[Mlekce]

So you want to nerf shields just beacuse of one guy makelele?
Seems legit.

[Kafein]

Happy new year !


Also if all of this is implemented I instaquit. Projectiles are much too effective against heavy armored infantry already, shield or not, and the shield forcefield is needed for shields to be anywhere close to useful. Otherwise you are simply better without one, allowing you to use longer, faster and more damaging weapons as well as moving way faster. It's 2013, everybody knows how to block and everybody knows 1h weapons are crap. The only use shields still have is blocking projectiles.

Also this is stupid but if the vertical shield forcefield was to be removed, it would be impossible to protect your feet. With all the camera movement you like, you just can't cover your feet because the shield, rather than being held lower, will only be tilted.

The warband engine will never be realistic enough for these changes to actually work balance wise. And anyway, realism and fun don't go in the same direction.

Also don't listen to GTX when comparing anything to 2h. He is biaised like hell.

[_GTX_]

Happy new year !


Also if all of this is implemented I instaquit. Projectiles are much too effective against heavy armored infantry already, shield or not, and the shield forcefield is needed for shields to be anywhere close to useful. Otherwise you are simply better without one, allowing you to use longer, faster and more damaging weapons as well as moving way faster.

Also this is stupid but if the vertical shield forcefield was to be removed, it would be impossible to protect your feet. With all the camera movement you like, you just can't cover your feet because the shield, rather than being held lower, will only be tilted.

The warband engine will never be realistic enough for these changes to actually work balance wise. And anyway, realism and fun don't go in the same direction.

Also don't listen to GTX when comparing anything to 2h. He is biaised like hell.

U are biased against me.

Also a little warning, u made a little typo, be careful he does not come after u.

[Kafein]

U are biased against me.

Also a little warning, u made a little typo, be careful he does not come after u.

I like you much more than most cRPG players I heard on the subject, you know. What I said earlier is the truth though.