Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG

[Tom Cruise]

2h is currently the strongest melee and that's exactly what they should be. 1H gets the HUGE advantage of shields, polearms have a HUGE selection of weapons, meaning they can be cav, support melee or even primary melee without suffering any serious disadvantages. 2H in return deserves to be the most powerfull primary melee.

Could not has said it better myself.

[Carthan]

First I'd like to state my builds just so you can see my references.
Polearm/hoplight x1
1hand shielder/bow archer x2

I would say that quite a few of these ideas are rather good, the removal of the magnetic shields would be more 'realistic' and they do make it very difficult for archers. Even using a tiny wooden shield I wouldnt get shot or very rarely get footshots (And that is why I use boardshield), or when I brought out my bow I wouldnt be able to shoot somone using the tinyest steel shield.

Many MANY time I have been killed with a 2hand lolstab, and on one side I agree that it should be nerfed, on the otherside I will say that being outranged by a twohander makes sense (Provided you dont have a mega pike) and just teaches you to become a better blocking.

EDIT: Posted while the above comments was being typed, and I agree with it but that post nor this post mentions archery or crossbowery.
I do like the upper spear thrust, adds variety and somthing to make hoplight a little easier to play (Especially when 85% of people just downblock and charge you)

Just retired last night, going to play as a polearm (No sheild hopefully)

[_GTX_]

What do u play as atm? plz tell the truth.

[Lethwin Far Seeker]

What do u play as atm? plz tell the truth.

I recently got to 31 on my first gen as a hoplite\polearm with 74 proficiency in 1h.  Previously I played 1h and shield, and before that a long run of 2h generations.

[_GTX_]

If you still don't believe 2h is unbalanced, do a little survey of players.  60% of players are 2hers at the least, wonder why?

Try looking on the servers, of the people who actually plays. If u havent read the forum recently, its quite dominated by cav and ranged. If u still dont trust me, try looking in the general discussion. There was made 2 threads about ranged, and that was just recently.

If u do find some 2h'ers on the servers, most of em will quit within a round ;). Again, if u do not trust me, check the forum ;). It does not seem like they are useless, since they make most of us GTX and respec.

Have u seen people on the servers aswell? They do not cry about all 2h'ers being on 1 team, which should happen, if u are correct. They are crying about cav or ranged being on 1 team, they could not care less about the 2h players.

Also, plz leave the retarded comments out of this one.

[Gravoth_iii]

Removing shield forcefield would ruin the gamebalance, since archers have it way too easy to aim for the feet/head, it doesnt work balance wise. Only way i see removing forcefield working is if archers get a harder time aiming, like a removed reticulee combined with an aiming system similar to Red orchestra 2 where the aim isnt locked in the middle. But i dont think it is possible to create anything like that so keep forcefields for shields!


And for the 2h'ers i dont think they need nerfs, i think other classes needs buffs.

[Tyr_]

Eliminate 2h thrust exploit (aka lolstab)
If the devs heed anything on here I hope it's this.  It's a broken mechanic that is simply absurd.  If it has happened to you then you already are nodding.  If you use it, then shame on you.  For any reading who don't know what I'm talking about, its something like this.  You are fighting some guy in a duel.  He has a big long great sword, so you get in up close.  You are just about to start dicing when he points his sword down.  His sword is literally inside of your character, who cares, if he thrusts he will obviously glance\whiff right?  Nope, you take the full impact of the pierce damage.  Sucks to duel a 2her eh?  That or the 2h thrust which goes way over the left side of your shoulder, miss? No, it someone curves right back in and now you are black barred at the least from taking a 2h thrust "to the face".

Sounds like you just had a duel against me

Increase half-swording damage and speed by about 3-5 and switch to 2h weapon proficiency
As a practitioner of Historical European Martial Arts and someone with some common sense, half-swording as Talhoffer called it shouldn't be that pathetic.  It should be somewhat slower yes and the cut reduced but not THAT much.  Also, and perhaps more importantly, knights were trained to use their weapon in every aspect.  If they encountered a heavily armoured opponent, it only made sense to use half swording techniques to punch through that armour or disarm him.  To do this, he didn't have to use a completely foreign method of fighting (switch to a different proficiency), this was something he would have trained for and would be quite natural.  Edit: Just an idea, rather than have an inferior yet identical right to left swing in halfswording, reverse the entire position of the sword, holding the blade while using the hilt and pommel as a blunt weapon, not sure if it's possible, just an idea.

Its not about the damage its about the range. Halfswording reduces the range of a 2her by about 80-100 if you stab, so its stupid to use it, even if it would 2 shot everybody youll get outranged by 1hers.

Increase archery and crossbow damage significantly
Let's face it, when that steel quarrel (crossbow bolt) comes smashing through your cuirass, tearing through the layers of mail and leather, and sinks its way into your chest, probably destroying any number of vital organs, you should be dead, and not walking on thinking about how much you hate Desire, who spent 5 or more seconds to load that thing and generations to master the skill of aiming it.  As big as that number is, it's obsolete when you compare it to the combination of power draw and bows (which have a much greater rate of fire) and the godawful 7 power throw throwing spears which can actually do more damage than the arbalest. Yeah.  Regarding bows, while not quite as absurd as the crossbows, admit it doesn't make sense to see some strength crutching 2her stroll by with 5 arrows sticking out of him, and he's still at half health.  Increasing archery damage would be more realistic, and, what do ya know, balance the game by curbing the big picture effectiveness of 2hers.

More damage for archers?

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Increasing xbow damage is fine, i dont mind arbalests oneshoting like in the old times, they need ages to reload anyways.
But archers? You want more realistic 2h animation - which i like, but you also need to fix stab of pikes, not only greatswords - but you want Archers to do more damage again tincans. If you arent using a longbow but yumi/warbow/hornbow your arrows shouldnt even scratch a tincan, they simply dont have the power to penetrate a plated armor. A lucky headshot in the visor may penetrate it, but if you want to make the game more realistic the only bow to do damage on full plate equip (like milanese) should be the longbow.

[DragzJoker]

I personally played 2h for a gen and it was way too easy, I used a war cleaver. A huge hunk of metal that just went straight through guys no problem. I could easily just spammed my way through a crowd easy, a small nerf on 2h speed would be good. For the forcefield on shields should be made a tad bit smaller so arrows can at least have a chance of going through the shield and hitting the enemy. Im not saying that the force field should be COMPLETELY removed but just a small area to be unprotected. Good post anyway finnian but i disagree a tad bit with your ideas

[Lethwin Far Seeker]

But archers? You want more realistic 2h animation - which i like, but you also need to fix stab of pikes, not only greatswords - but you want Archers to do more damage again tincans. If you arent using a longbow but yumi/warbow/hornbow your arrows shouldnt even scratch a tincan, they simply dont have the power to penetrate a plated armor. A lucky headshot in the visor may penetrate it, but if you want to make the game more realistic the only bow to do damage on full plate equip (like milanese) should be the longbow.

I understand about the plate, but thats why we have the repair system.  Most archers shouldn't be able to penetrate it, but the shouldn't have to 3 shot a peasant.

[Jona]

Coming from someone who has only ever been a 2hander, and only recently made a polearm alt, I have to agree to disagree.  While I will say that the lolstab is OP, it is also "hard" to do.  Whenever in a duel I always glance off of people when trying to stab them if they are anywhere near half the length of my sword away.  It might have to do with me always having lower powerstrike though, I'm not sure.  I will say that it is incredibly annoying when it happens to me, but i have only pulled off a point blank stab once or twice.  As far as the curve-around-the-back-of-your-head-stab...I have never noticed myself doing one, but have definitely felt its affects many, many, many times.  However, it seems that we are ignoring how ALL stabs are like that *cough polearms cough*.  The pike is definitely the worst offender.

As far as the whole "2hander deserves to be the strongest melee unit" argument goes...well, I kinda have to agree. We are absolutely powerless against any and all ranged, having only footwork and the surroundings to save us (or a helpful ally).  However, unless you group in polearms who use poleaxes and such into your definition of a 2hander, then I must say...polearms have the same strengths as a 2hander, but no one complains about them. MAYBE most 2hands swing faster and are unrealistic.  But if that is the case how hard do you think it would be to swing something that weighs 2-3 times as much, with all the mass concentrated on the far end?  If 2handers would become realistic, polearms would be near useless.  A normal poleaxe would have to be swung at the speed of the great long maul, if not slower.  Not to mention polearms get more variety, as well as viable secondary modes.

As far as buffing archery, I will just say that shooting around a shield is enough of a buff, and should be implemented to some degree.  If the shielder cannot rotate and position his shield properly to face the archer or cover his head and such, then it would be rather unfair and archers would get pretty easy headshots.  You have to remember that us 2handers with no defenses can still easily get picked apart by even the weakest of archers since all they have to do is shoot us, turn, run, hop, shoot us, rinse and repeat. Happens all the time and we are defenseless.  Increasing their strength would of course be more realistic, but suck... a lot.

And in regards to allowing for overhead stabs.... yes. it should happen.  Happened in real life, and is a cool mechanic that would make the class much more viable.  However, my only gripe would be that they would become twice as strong. Sure, it isn't THAT hard to charge someone who outreaches you and block up and down, however I have already seen an increase in the numbers of pikesmen recently, playing support all too well.  All it takes is maybe 3 pikemen in line with infantry to scare off the opposing team. Why? Well, cav wouldn't go near, and the opposing infantry wouldn't either.  There is nothing more annoying that fighting someone, only to be stabbed by 3 different guys who you didn't even see since their range is so great.  If they could attack in two directions, then they would not only be pure support, but also an incredibly ranged fighter.  Sure, in a 1 v 1 maybe the guy with a 2hander or poleaxe or 1hander could close the gap (assuming they can block well) and win.  But in a mob, or 2 pikes v 1 infantry, the pikes will have a significant advantage of range.  It is hard enough closing the distance on a skilled pikemen as it is... with the spin-jump exploit and all... it would be a nightmare if they had two modes of attack.  But once again, it should be implemented, I just fear there may be balancing issues following.  (of course a shielder may be able to still destroy an enemy pike by easily closing the gap... but since shielders move slower, and if that pikeman had a decent amount of athletics...)

Summary / tl;dr: If 2handers are to be nerfed, so must all similar classes i.e. the infamous glaive or polearm users.  Personally, i found the glaive to be easier to use than any 2handed greatswords simply because the range was about the same, but it didn't ever glance, it was faster, had the same power if not more, and also has stopping power against horses (while you have to be really really good with a 2hander to even attempt standing up to a charging cav *half-swording buff could help here*). Shielders and pikes should be changed to add more variety to the game.

By the way, am I the only one who has noticed that when shields don't utilize their magnetic pull ability, throwing weapons or arrows will simply disappear on impact, thus not even damaging the shield?  I noticed this for the first time when I tried throwing (which I won't even bring into this argument) and was pretty shocked at how often it occured.  Aim anywhere near the brim of the shield and the game almost doesn't know if it hit or not, so the projectile will stop at the contact point, then fade away.



End of rant.

[Little Lord Lollipop]

Great ideas!

I think the forcefield on shields should be reduced (maybe halved?) but not eliminated though.

[Lethwin Far Seeker]

As far as the whole "2hander deserves to be the strongest melee unit" argument goes...well, I kinda have to agree. We are absolutely powerless against any and all ranged, having only footwork and the surroundings to save us (or a helpful ally).  However, unless you group in polearms who use poleaxes and such into your definition of a 2hander, then I must say...polearms have the same strengths as a 2hander, but no one complains about them. MAYBE No maybe, they are, if you don't believe me I can make a demonstration video with my longsword. most 2hands swing faster and are unrealistic.  But if that is the case how hard do you think it would be to swing something that weighs 2-3 times as much, with all the mass concentrated on the far end? 1st, wood weighs less than steel, 2nd polearms have a MUCH more spaced grip, and thereby more leverage, whereas with a 2h you are holding the sword at the very end and thereby are at a mechanical disadvantage, in the real world at least.  If 2handers would become realistic, polearms would be near useless. No  A normal poleaxe would have to be swung at the speed of the great long maul, if not slower. LoL No, have you ever wielded a poleaxe of any kind?  Not to mention polearms get more variety, as well as viable secondary modes. In most cases the secondary (usually blunt) is of such an inferior damage that it would be only worth it if you were desperate for a knock down or up against an extreme tincan.  That and the speed reduction, which I'm not sure I understand at all

As far as buffing archery, I will just say that shooting around a shield is enough of a buff, and should be implemented to some degree.  If the shielder cannot rotate and position his shield properly to face the archer or cover his head and such, then it would be rather unfair and archers would get pretty easy headshots.  You have to remember that us 2handers with no defenses can still easily get picked apart by even the weakest of archers since all they have to do is shoot us, turn, run, hop, shoot us, rinse and repeat. Happens all the time and we are defenseless.  Increasing their strength would of course be more realistic, but suck... a lot. Well without a shield you actually can dodge, having played archery, I practically gave up whenever a targeted 2her started spinning and stuff.  It's a lot harder than you think.  You can also wear more armour without being as encumbered as a shielder, note the very high weight on shields.  If you want that superiority in melee, you have to pay for it somewhere

And in regards to allowing for overhead stabs.... yes. it should happen.  Happened in real life, and is a cool mechanic that would make the class much more viable.  However, my only gripe would be that they would become twice as strong. Sure, it isn't THAT hard to charge someone who outreaches you and block up and down, however I have already seen an increase in the numbers of pikesmen recently, playing support all too well.  All it takes is maybe 3 pikemen in line with infantry to scare off the opposing team. Why? Well, cav wouldn't go near, and the opposing infantry wouldn't either.  There is nothing more annoying that fighting someone, only to be stabbed by 3 different guys who you didn't even see since their range is so great.Welcome to fighting against teamwork  If they could attack in two directions, then they would not only be pure support, but also an incredibly ranged fighter.  Sure, in a 1 v 1 maybe the guy with a 2hander or poleaxe or 1hander could close the gap (assuming they can block well) and win.  But in a mob, or 2 pikes v 1 infantry, the pikes will have a significant advantage of range.  It is hard enough closing the distance on a skilled pikemen as it is... with the spin-jump exploit and all... it would be a nightmare if they had two modes of attack.  But once again, it should be implemented, I just fear there may be balancing issues following.  (of course a shielder may be able to still destroy an enemy pike by easily closing the gap... but since shielders move slower, and if that pikeman had a decent amount of athletics...)

Summary / tl;dr: If 2handers are to be nerfed, so must all similar classes i.e. the infamous glaive or polearm users.  Personally, i found the glaive to be easier to use than any 2handed greatswords simply because the range was about the same, but it didn't ever glance, it was faster, It's not statistically faster, it's range creates that affect though had the same power if not more, and also has stopping power against horses (while you have to be really really good with a 2hander to even attempt standing up to a charging cavNot my esperience, as a 2her fighting oncoming cavalry was one of my favourite things to do as the class. *half-swording buff could help here*). No it shouldn't, half swording decreases range and would not  be a realistic anti cav.  Halfswording is for close quarters or against heavy armourShielders and pikes should be changed to add more variety to the game.

[Lethwin Far Seeker]

Great ideas!

I think the forcefield on shields should be reduced (maybe halved?) but not eliminated though.

Agreed, I would be satisfied with halved.

[Hunter_the_Honourable]

As far as the whole "2hander deserves to be the strongest melee unit" argument goes...well, I kinda have to agree. We are absolutely powerless against any and all ranged, having only footwork and the surroundings to save us (or a helpful ally).  However, unless you group in polearms who use poleaxes and such into your definition of a 2hander, then I must say...polearms have the same strengths as a 2hander, but no one complains about them. MAYBE most 2hands swing faster and are unrealistic.  But if that is the case how hard do you think it would be to swing something that weighs 2-3 times as much, with all the mass concentrated on the far end?  If 2handers would become realistic, polearms would be near useless.  A normal poleaxe would have to be swung at the speed of the great long maul, if not slower.  Not to mention polearms get more variety, as well as viable secondary modes.

With weapons such as the poleaxe, it is the spear like point at the bottom of the weapon that was used mostly, to jab at the enemies feet and at gaps in their armor. However with this only being a game that's kinda hard to do.

As for the "2handers MUST be the supreme melee class" err, I have to disagree. someone who is a pure two hander should not be way better then someone who is a pure 1hander or polearm, each class should have an advantage and disadvantage

E.G the two hander might be the faster one the 1hander has a shield and the polearm more reach. It should not be the two hander does the most damage has the lolstab and is the fastest. If two handers must be the "supreme" melee class then gratz on proving that playing two hander means playing easymode. 


And yes a MW glave along with a MW long hefted blade are the two easiest weapons a polearm user can use, imho as a polearm user since the first time I retired they do need changing however I think you will find most other polearms excluding the staffs, are a lot harder to use then the average two handed sword. As for saying 2hers don't stand a chance against cav. You must be very bad at the game, all you need to do is stab and the chances are you stabbed faster then him out ranged him stabbed through the horse damaging it and him plus cancelling his attack and all you suffer is a bump. 2handers can stand up to cav... atleast any two hander with half a brain can fight cav and win.

[Lethwin Far Seeker]

As for the "2handers MUST be the supreme melee class" err, I have to disagree. someone who is a pure two hander should not be way better then someone who is a pure 1hander or polearm, each class should have an advantage and disadvantage

E.G the two hander might be the faster one the 1hander has a shield and the polearm more reach. It should not be the two hander does the most damage has the lolstab and is the fastest. If two handers must be the "supreme" melee class then gratz on proving that playing two hander means playing easymode. 

Agree!