Author Topic: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG  (Read 6470 times)

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Offline Lethwin Far Seeker

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Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« on: December 31, 2012, 10:21:30 pm »
+4
Note:  due to a derailing from the topic at hand, this threat is for the mean time locked.

So I've been playing cRPG for a while (currently lvl 31 8th gen, a 2nd gen alt and a 3rd gen alt) and it has to be my favourite multiplayer mod.  Big surprise.  I'd like to address some elements in it's current state that I would like addressed.  Whether the dev team has any interest in this or not, I hope it will at least give insight to interested players.
So here's what I have to say.

Reduce general 2h weapon speeds by about 2-3 speed
I actually practice longsword\greatsword techniques and I can tell you, you can't swing them THAT fast.  I spent several generations as a 2h.  With am 18\21 2h build I could spam even the flamberge like it was a toothpick.  An extremely high damage toothpick.  I know what it's like to be 2h.  I had lots of fun with it, but it has gotten to a point where it is unrealistic and unfair to people playing other classes.  Don't believe me?  Try playing a gen as a shielder or even polearm.  It's not near as easy.  But maybe you're just one of those players who is pro at everything?  Well at least look at recent "game balances".  Polestun removed.  Archery nerfed.  Shielders kick like grandma, etc.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but when was the last time 2h got nerfed?  A while back I thought some 2h weapons got a damage boost.  Oh joy...  If you still don't believe 2h is unbalanced, do a little survey of players.  60% of players are 2hers at the least, wonder why?

Eliminate 2h thrust exploit (aka lolstab)
If the devs heed anything on here I hope it's this.  It's a broken mechanic that is simply absurd.  If it has happened to you then you already are nodding.  If you use it, then shame on you.  For any reading who don't know what I'm talking about, its something like this.  You are fighting some guy in a duel.  He has a big long great sword, so you get in up close.  You are just about to start dicing when he points his sword down.  His sword is literally inside of your character, who cares, if he thrusts he will obviously glance\whiff right?  Nope, you take the full impact of the pierce damage.  Sucks to duel a 2her eh?  That or the 2h thrust which goes way over the left side of your shoulder, miss? No, it someone curves right back in and now you are black barred at the least from taking a 2h thrust "to the face".

Increase half-swording damage and speed by about 3-5 and switch to 2h weapon proficiency
As a practitioner of Historical European Martial Arts and someone with some common sense, half-swording as Talhoffer called it shouldn't be that pathetic.  It should be somewhat slower yes and the cut reduced but not THAT much.  Also, and perhaps more importantly, knights were trained to use their weapon in every aspect.  If they encountered a heavily armoured opponent, it only made sense to use half swording techniques to punch through that armour or disarm him.  To do this, he didn't have to use a completely foreign method of fighting (switch to a different proficiency), this was something he would have trained for and would be quite natural.  Edit: Just an idea, rather than have an inferior yet identical right to left swing in halfswording, reverse the entire position of the sword, holding the blade while using the hilt and pommel as a blunt weapon, not sure if it's possible, just an idea.
Edit #2  Give halfswording overhand stab (the same that would be prospectively be given to pikes as mentioned later on).  Why?  Look at the manuscripts.  It was possibly the most common halfswording position.


Increase archery and crossbow damage significantly
Let's face it, when that steel quarrel (crossbow bolt) comes smashing through your cuirass, tearing through the layers of mail and leather, and sinks its way into your chest, probably destroying any number of vital organs, you should be dead, and not walking on thinking about how much you hate Desire, who spent 5 or more seconds to load that thing and generations to master the skill of aiming it.  As big as that number is, it's obsolete when you compare it to the combination of power draw and bows (which have a much greater rate of fire) and the godawful 7 power throw throwing spears which can actually do more damage than the arbalest. Yeah.  Regarding bows, while not quite as absurd as the crossbows, admit it doesn't make sense to see some strength crutching 2her stroll by with 5 arrows sticking out of him, and he's still at half health.  Increasing archery damage would be more realistic, and, what do ya know, balance the game by curbing the big picture effectiveness of 2hers.

Eliminate shield clipping
I don't know if this actually can be solved, but countless times I have watched a blade magically go through the edge of my shield simply because of the targets position.  "Getting around the shield" shouldn't be quite so easy.  This would be accomplished by a realistic shield with collisional mesh properties.

Remove "magnetic"/"force field" shielding affect
This is a big one.  Of course arrows that were heading toward's your face or foot being magically drawn to your shield dramatically increases your survival rate, but it completely removes the higher elements of skilled archery.  It has been argued that this is essential for game balance.  After all, who wants to be the first person going up the ladder with no hope of getting off said ladder except as a corpse with arrows bristling from your eye sockets and toes?  Well that's why you don't want to be the first person going up the ladder, because it sucks.  Fortunately, we have this awesome thing called a siege tower!  So if the defence on the walls is to thick, attacker's can use that (instead of just strolling up the ladder and clearing any resistance with a single great mauler).  Also, implementing this will bring back more variety.  In a siege, the kite, heater, and board (pavise) shields might finally get a chance to shine again rather than being eternally in the shadow of the statistically superior round shields.  If nothing were done to curb the unbalanced 2h, this at least would bring back enough archers to make players think twice before choosing to go with the most exploitable class in the mod.

Add overhand thrust to spear and shield
End the tyranny of Block Down for Invincibility!  This is kind of a common sense thing.  More realistic, adds variety to game.  Go outside with a broom stick and a trashcan lid and see how it feels!  I could rant on this more but why don't you just watch this video.  Viable animation example in Vikingr mod.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY3GtNoxAdM

Change overhand swing on 2 directional polearms (excepting awlpikes and halberds) to overhand thrust (animations in Fire&Sword)
Again working against the fore said tyranny.  Aside from being historically accurate, realistic, and a lot less stupid looking, imagine- pikes would actually be a force to be reckoned.  Pikers\Longspears would still be a support class, but it would make them less absurdly helpless against someone spamming the down block.  So cRPG isn't With Fire & Sword?  The over hand thrust (using a spear) was also used in viking shieldwalls FYI, and again, common sense.

Thank you for reading my somewhat lengthy monologue on what I think should be fixed, added, or removed to cRPG.

Finnian Tiercel, the Gaunt, Captain of the King's Guard of the Hounds of Chulainn (there are many variations in the spelling, stop griefing me Dazed),  Son of Lethwin Far Seeker
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 08:54:31 pm by Lethwin Far Seeker »
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Offline SMEGMAR

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Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2012, 10:29:40 pm »
+1
tl;dr
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Offline Miley

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Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2012, 10:30:51 pm »
0
I don't agree...

1. cRPG won't ever become realistic, even less so your version of realistic.
2. Do you know how much QQ would come from range buff?
3. Just leave melee alone I'd say... I think they balance each other out well enough.
4. Magnetic shield... if we remove it I bet people would QQ as well.

But I do think that adding the upperhand attack for hoplites would be a good addition. And the two hand stab is messed up, but it doesn't bother me that much.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 11:03:29 pm by Miley »

Offline SMEGMAR

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Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2012, 10:34:54 pm »
+11
I am a 2h and I don't agree because I am a 2h...

Fixed.
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Offline oprah_winfrey

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Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2012, 10:40:21 pm »
+2
Oh, a shielder/hoplite wants to nerf 2hs and buff shields and hoplites, how odd.

Offline Nightingale

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Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 10:45:51 pm »
+4
Oh, a shielder/hoplite wants to nerf 2hs and buff shields and hoplites, how odd.

Remove "magnetic"/"force field" shielding affect

Not sure... but that doesn't seem like a buff?

Offline Lethwin Far Seeker

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Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2012, 10:48:41 pm »
+3
Oh, a shielder/hoplite wants to nerf 2hs and buff shields and hoplites, how odd.

Just played hoplite for 1 generation, I played 2h for 4-5 generations.  And I'd like to point out I'm supporting a damage buff to archers as well as removal of magical shields, you know like the kind a hoplite uses.
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Offline Warborn304

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Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2012, 10:52:10 pm »
+4
I don't agree...

1. cRPG won't ever become realistic, even less so your version of realistic.
2. Do you know how much QQ would come from range buff?
3. Just leave melee alone I'd say... I think they balance each other out well enough.
4. Magnetic shield... if we remove it I bet people would QQ as well.

I think he has some interesting ideas and maybe even some new aspects to look into. I don't believe the game should revolve around who cries more and who does't as you're wanting it to be.

  • I think the thrust exploit should be looked into.
  • Half swording is an interesting concept. Although I don't think anyone would use it.
  • I don't think you can nerf 2h AND buff Ranged, it would cause too much of a separation gap. I'm not sure if I would touch archery from what I'm currently experiencing. That or I personally don't know what to do with it. HA is a different story.
  • Shield clipping is an interesting bugger. I've experienced it and think this is something that needs to be looked into.
  • The "magnetic shield" thing in my opinion doesn't need to be messed with... I still believe you have to cover your head to protect against head shots.
  • Overhead thrust is an interesting concept.

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Offline Tom Cruise

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Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2012, 10:58:48 pm »
+5
I think he has some interesting ideas and maybe even some new aspects to look into. I don't believe the game should revolve around who cries more and who does't as you're wanting it to be.

  • The "magnetic shield" thing in my opinion doesn't need to be messed with... I still believe you have to cover your head to protect against head shots.


Oh really Whoreborn?
(click to show/hide)

Also do you know how ridiculous the force field is on especially horseback? How many times of stabbed a horse in the face when it charges straight at me and apparently the mouth is in the shield area. As well as swinging at the horses legs when it rides by, again apparently in the shield area. 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 11:04:43 pm by mmason94 »
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Offline Warborn304

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Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2012, 11:02:22 pm »
+5
    Oh really Whoreborn?
    (click to show/hide)
    [/list]

    I don't know how recent that is, but if that's the case.

    (click to show/hide)
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    Offline oprah_winfrey

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    Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
    « Reply #10 on: December 31, 2012, 11:03:36 pm »
    0
    Not sure... but that doesn't seem like a buff?

    Quote
    Add overhand thrust to spear and shield

    Offline Warborn304

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    Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
    « Reply #11 on: December 31, 2012, 11:05:08 pm »
    +2
    He is trying to add a more complex system into the game mechanics other than L2DOWNBLOCKLOL...
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    Offline IG_Saint

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    Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
    « Reply #12 on: December 31, 2012, 11:09:01 pm »
    +6
    Reduce general 2h weapon speeds by about 2-3 speed

    Eliminate 2h thrust exploit

    Increase half-swording damage and speed by about 3-5 and switch to 2h weapon proficiency

    Increase archery and crossbow damage significantly

    Eliminate shield clipping

    Remove "magnetic"/"force field" shielding affect

    Add overhand thrust to spear and shield

    Change overhand swing on 2 directional polearms (excepting awlpikes and halberds) to overhand thrust (animations in Fire&Sword

    Full disclosure: I haven't read anything but the first post and it's new years eve so I'm drunk, but:

    2h is currently the strongest melee and that's exactly what they should be. 1H gets the HUGE advantage of shields, polearms have a HUGE selection of weapons, meaning they can be cav, support melee or even primary melee without suffering any serious disadvantages. 2H in return deserves to be the most powerfull primary melee. I do however support the half-swording ideas, mainly because half-swording is currently (mostly) useless.

    Archery is still too strong, I'm not going to go into why, because A: the melee guys will just agree with me and the ranged will disagree and B: I can't figure out any way to bring ranged into line with what I'd want it to be without nerfing it into the ground, to the point that no one will want to play it. Crossbows could use a slight buff imo.

    Shield stuff: I actually agree with you about the shield stuff, however actually implementing these nerfs would nerf shields into oblivion. In short: either overhaul the entire shield system or don't touch it, overal shields (and 1 handers) are fairly balanced.

    overhand spear attack and 2 directional polearms: Again, I'd love for this stuff to be implemented, however it would severly unbalance the current system, either overhaul it completely (not really possible) or leave it as it is.

    In short: Most of your problems seem to be with the entire way the mount&blade system works and I agree with (a lot) of those problems. However, fixing them is (close to) impossible. I'd rather have this facade of balance than spend anywhere between 1 to 3 years figuring out how to overhaul these systems and actually get them balanced.

    Side note: I highly doubt the cRPG devs would be allowed to use the fire&sword animations without being sued.

    Offline Rulka

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    Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
    « Reply #13 on: December 31, 2012, 11:17:22 pm »
    0
    I think that these changes would help the game but 2h users would be very pissy about it. Some things 2h users might agree about though. I think there can be a compromise. 

    Offline Lethwin Far Seeker

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    Re: Finnian Tiercel's evaluation and recommendations for cRPG
    « Reply #14 on: December 31, 2012, 11:17:40 pm »
    -1

    Side note: I highly doubt the cRPG devs would be allowed to use the fire&sword animations without being sued.

    Example of animation, I didn't mean that they should just go and grab them.

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