Author Topic: Point blank range and dmg  (Read 5948 times)

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Offline Tigero

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2013, 02:40:22 pm »
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Then you will notice that the arrow penetrate deepest at arrow's length from the string especially if you got one of those my old friendgy compound bows with central brush-arrowrest. And even with flexing arrows the flex doesn't affect penetration as much as the energy of the arrow, which in war use was mostly in the tip anyway and even if the shaft would crash with the walls of the entrance hole it's not going to have much effect to the final damage, which gets me to my idea of balancing the damage arrows do between diffrent armors.

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Offline Zaar

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 09:02:25 am »
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You play too many video games and not enough time studying the world you actually live in.  :P

Ever see anyone say:

"Shoot him!"
"I can't! He's too close and it does no damage at that range!"

 :mrgreen:

I understand what you mean and I do agree, at least to certain extent.
Pretty sure bow (arrow) does dmg at point blank (few cm is all that is needed for the tip to pierce something) but I wouldn't say it would do as much dmg as at few meters or more.

THen again, I'm no expert.

Maybe Garison will manage (or has already?) test stuff out at the range.
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2013, 12:48:43 am »
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I'll try to test in a couple days...I'm not sure if the guy that owns the archery shop will want me making point-blank shots in his range tho.  :?

I'll do my best!

Offline no_rules_just_play

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 10:33:36 pm »
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Well, by "wobble" i mean the arrow flexes or wiggles for a bit as it flies.  You can look up videos of arrow flight in slow motion to see what I mean.

I'm no physics expert, but I've drawn a picture to communicate my understanding of this.

(click to show/hide)

So basically imagine you have a straight piece of wood, like a long thin dowel rod, and you jab it at someone's chest with it.  Then imagine you flop it around a bit and jab again.  The 2nd jab will likely impart less force because it will be flexed when it strikes.

The arrow shot at point blank will still have energy and straighten itself after it hits, but the straight arrow has the entire shaft driving directly behind the point.
one of the most important laws in physics and chemistry: energy can not be created, neither can it be destructed.
You say is:
energy arrow =  energy impact + energy for flex
==> this means, the bigger the flex the lower the impact energy.

BUT the energy for the flex will also be conducted into the target as you can see the arrow as a spring that gets a higher state of energy because of the flex.

this is what i think that happens

Offline Zaar

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2013, 10:22:46 am »
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I'll try to test in a couple days...I'm not sure if the guy that owns the archery shop will want me making point-blank shots in his range tho.  :?

I'll do my best!

In any case, thanks for trying!
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Offline WITCHCRAFT

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2013, 09:53:44 pm »
+1
This is all really cool and I love reading nerdy discussions like this, but I doubt it can be ported into the M&B engine in any meaningful way.

edit: I mean just consider how projectiles (throwing more than arrows/bolts, but all to some degree) get really wonky at point blank. They can appear to miss but then hit the target, or pass straight through a horse that takes up your whole screen.
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Offline donib

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2013, 10:29:51 pm »
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Irl you might hit with the haft of a throwing axe

Offline Penitent

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2013, 07:12:35 pm »
+3
Ok, I have conducted 2 amateur experiments.  I remain unbiased and did my best to control what variables I could. 

First, I went to an indoor archery range.  It was very busy on Saturday morning, and I was not able to take my time and set things up the way I wanted. Still, I did what I could.  I was shooting a 45# recurve bow using aluminum arrow shafts with field tips. The target was a big foam block that seemed to me might have a somewhat uniform density.  I shot 2 arrows at 4 yards, 2 at 8 yards, and 2 at 20 yards.  The arrows I shot were NOT uniform in terms of spine stiffness.  I also was not able to take my time an measure how far each one penetrated.  It was obvious the 4 yard arrows did have the most energy.  I've never shot a target that close. It made a loud THWAP when hitting the target.  The 8 yard arrows were not as loud but they "seemed" to go in to the target just a bit more. The 20 yard arrow obviously did not penetrate as deeply.  I was interested in the 4-8 yard difference so I decided to do a more controlled experiment at home.

I made a target from a 9x12 box and PACKED it with papers so it was uniform density.  It was like a paper brick lol.  Kind of like a really thick phone book.  I got 3 arrows that were identical in stiffness and weight.  I shot 3 arrows at 1 yard and 3 at 8 yards.  The 1-yard arrows all penetrated exactly 13/16ths of an inch.  Of the 8-yard arrows, two arrows penetrated exactly 1 inch, and one was 1+1/16th inch.

The differences were small, but in this 2nd test they were consistent.  The arrows penetrated more at 8 yards than at 1 yard. I also think I know why.  Something I observed at the very close shots (1 & 4 yards) was that the arrow stuck out of the targets at and angle once they were shot.  I attribute this to the previously discussed "wobble".  I've modified my mspaint pic to illustrate this.  While in both cases all the energy of the arrow is transferred to the target, I think the energy is transferred at slightly different angles.  This may so explain Why the very close shots produced more noise.  The part in the box shows what I mean.

Pic
(click to show/hide)

In conclusion, I think there is a point somewhere along the arrow's flight where it can transfer maximum energy to the target in a "stabalized" state which allows it to penetrate the best.  I don't think this point is "point blank" but somewhere between 4 and 15 yards, depending on the bow and arrows used.

tidbit: did you know the term "point blank" (pointe blanc) come to us from ye olde time archery lingo? :)

Some other thoughts:
1. A medieval war bow could have a draw weight from 80-120 lbs...way more than my 45# bow. This may mke a difference.  Then again it may make these results more pronounced.  The field tips I used are designed to just penetrate a target and then slow down so they don't go too far in.

2. I don't hunt, but I've heard bow hunters say that an arrow shot from a 50# or 60# bow, with a broadhead attached, routinely go STRAIGHT THROUGH deer and other large game animals if it doesn't hit a large bone like a shoulder blade.  In this light I think only armored targets would benefit from being further away/closer to an archer in terms of negating damage (in game or irl).

3. Lastly I encourage people to try this out or suggest other ways to test.  My experiment was really small, but at least it gives something to think about!

edit:
pics for proof. :)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 07:53:14 pm by Garison »

Offline Rumblood

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2013, 08:08:10 pm »
+1
I would say statistically that is a very small number for a proper trial, especially as the papers weren't machine packed. My other question would be whether you unconsciously drew further back when loosing at 8 yards as opposed to 1 yard. Lastly, it appears the target is on the ground and the angle would naturally be steeper up close than from further away and wonder if that didn't have an effect on the penetration as well.

But certainly a valiant effort at testing the theory! +1
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2013, 08:32:10 pm »
+1
I would say statistically that is a very small number for a proper trial, especially as the papers weren't machine packed. My other question would be whether you unconsciously drew further back when loosing at 8 yards as opposed to 1 yard. Lastly, it appears the target is on the ground and the angle would naturally be steeper up close than from further away and wonder if that didn't have an effect on the penetration as well.

But certainly a valiant effort at testing the theory! +1

Valid points!

Yes, its a very humble trial.  I figured the papers were packed ok because the arrows penetrated at nearly the same depth each time.  Also, my "anchor point" is the same when drawing back the bow, so I should have drew it consistently each time (though I'm not expert archer by a LONG shot). 

Like you, I was worried about the angle of the target as well.  When I shot at 1-yard I tilted the box back a little (see pic) to help compensate for this...and stood it straight up for the 8-yard shots.  Not perfect...and indeed the angles were probably slightly different.  Still it should have helped.

Good points though!

Offline Kaiser Augustus

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2013, 07:34:16 pm »
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+1 May the devs be ever in your favor.
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Offline Mammonist

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2013, 08:20:52 pm »
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As for the pikes and long spears: If you rub the shaft really fast across someones face (:lol:) a nasty friction burn will be caused, so that must be where the point blank damage comes from.  :D

(sorry for reviving dead thread)


Offline Nightmare798

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2013, 03:37:11 pm »
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Why do you think a projectile will do more damage at a greater distance?

It will only suffer from air drag and loose its initial speed, which is highest after released from the bow, and reduces in flight.

Unless you would shoot in an arc and the shooter is on an elevated position, if the velocity of the projectile in the descent>initial velocity, which could be possible, but i dont think this is the case in crpg.

Regarding the pikes and spears, it is impossible to stab someone point blank (unless you do some fancy 360 moves or something). But even when you are able to stab, the distance doesnt matter as long the velocity of the stab is constant, more corectly would be if the energy transfer is the same, but yea it does cost more energy to move an object further away, but i think these variables are a bit too much for a game like crpg and it wouldnt really matter that much.

Wrong! Using spear at point blank range is actually piece of cake, just turn a little right, and when you release attack, turn back left.
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Offline Elindor

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2013, 08:41:55 pm »
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Huh, lot of interesting archery physics in here...

As for your original questions...in terms of what is good for gameplay here is my thoughts.

1 - Archery at close range : Not a big gameplay issue imho -  when that unarmed archer shows guts and stands his ground while a heavily armed strength 2h charges him and then releases his arrow at the last instant before the sword of war lands on his head...and walks off victorious...I don't think anyone can argue that took balls (even the 2h would admit that, and I am one)

2 - Stabs from long weapons at close range : Yes, this is a game play problem in my opinion.  As you mentioned in your original post, long weapons should have advantages at their effective range and lose that effectiveness to varying degrees once the opponent is inside that range.  Now, many of you would say this does already happen...and im sure it does - but it would seem not enough.  Now I don't propose to nerf long weapons into non existence...but its worth looking into.  Plus theres plenty of 0 slot 1h that could be pulled out when the longspear's range has been breached...maybe we increase the speed of switching weapons?

Anyhow, just my thoughts.
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Offline Templar_Steevee

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Re: Point blank range and dmg
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2013, 11:26:35 am »
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Garison, I hope you know that arrows used in medevial battles were really stiff and heavier than yours. Because of stiffnes and higher mass they got better penetration attributes.

Higher inertia (it's connected to mass) makes they hit harder than light arrows . Additional aspect is that energy needs time to travel from one objest to another on impact, so it's next + for Heavy arrows :)

How deep arrow will penetrate target is also determinated in wich stadium of bent arrow is, highest penetration of course is when arrow hits target while it's straight.
Different bows (sorted by how much power need to draw them) gonna bent same arrow a bit different, and in tests like yours it could show different results on same distances(we nedd to scale results of course).
 

Anyway + for your tests :)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 11:36:44 am by Templar_Steevee »
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