Potential WPF / WM Changes

[Uumdi]

*COUGH thanks Tomas, look back on page 1 guys, he's more organized and professional*


All great points, thanks guys.  Glad to hear, especially Paul respond, because even the simplest formulas come out complicated as hell.


Even Panos has a point.  You can block - return swing against any weapon with any weapon, and that integrity has remained through every build, but I know we'd see 1000 more longsword and heavy bastard swords with 190 wpf running around.


Hmm!  Removing or lessening the wpf on level up does seem like the simplest fix.  A passive benefit to agility would be another.  Maybe a combination of the two?

Current formula (using the ol' calculator pack, sorry if its just a tiny bit off):
18/18 with 6 WM = 591 wpf
30/9 with 3 WM   = 381 wpf

Potential AGI instead of level gain formula[/spoiler]

Code: [Select]

wpf_0 = 25
delta_wpf_WM = (20+10*WM)    #for increasing WM by one
delta_wpf_[b]AGI[/b] = 5 + ([b]AGI[/b]-1) DIV 5           #for increasing [b]AGI [/b]by one
with DIV being (Euclidean) integer division(5 DIV 2 = 2), ignoring the remainder
delta_wpf = wpf_0 + delta_wpf_WM + delta_wpf_[b]agi[/b]
For total wpf gain over the whole career one can develop the following equation:

Code: [Select]

total_wpf = 5*WM*(5+WM) + 25 + [b]AGI[/b]*(5+(([b]AGI[/b]-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((AGI-1)DIV5)*(((AGI-1)DIV5)+1)
(can't get my head around a better simplification for the lvl based wpf atm, sry)
example: [b]level 30; WM=6; Agility 18[/b] =>
total_wpf = 5*6*(5+6) + 25 + 18*(5+((18-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((18-1)DIV5)*(((18-1)DIV5)+1)
total_wpf = 330 + 25 + 18*(5+3) - 5/2*(3*(3+1))
total_wpf = 330 + 25 + 144 - 30 
[b]total_wpf = 469[/b]

example: [b]level 30; WM=3; Agility 9[/b] =>
total_wpf = 5*3*(5+3) + 25 + 9*(5+((9-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((9-1)DIV5)*(((9-1)DIV5)+1)
total_wpf = 120 + 25 + 9*(5+1) - 5/2*(1*(1+1))
total_wpf = 120 + 25 + 45 - 2.5 (wat)
[b][b]total_wpf = 188[/b][/b]

So simply substituting AGILITY for LEVEL in the formula, you're left with
18/18 max WM = 469
30/9 max WM   = 188

about 469 vs. 188 as opposed to 591 vs. 381 for a balanced vs. strength build. 

Put into a single weapon skill, that's  144 vs 100 as opposed to the current 156 vs. 133.  Again, I apologize, just used the cRPG calculator, might be just a few digits off.

I'm a shithead and I'm sure its not that simple.  That gap would naturally grow, the more impact you increased the amount that each AGI point gave you.  Maybe a combination of the two values, because unless you have 30 agility in your build, you're going to wind up with less wpf than you did before this way.

9/30 build would essentially have the same wpf that it does now though at level 30, since they're just swapped.  That creates a nice soft cap so you wouldn't see Bastard Swords with 200+ wpf.

[Panos]

Even Panos has a point.  You can block - return swing against any weapon with any weapon, and that integrity has remained through every build, but I know we'd see 1000 more longsword and heavy bastard swords with 190 wpf running around.

Uhm...Thanks??

I guess..

[Uumdi]

Uhm...Thanks??

I guess..

Np buddy, I got your back

1) Change level based wpf to agility based wpf and change DIV5 to DIV10
delta_wpf_agility = 5 + (lvl-1) DIV 10           #for increasing lvl by one

How bad would High agility builds get if you kept it at DIV5?

[Tomas]

How bad would High agility builds get if you kept it at DIV5?

45 agility, 15WM (possible at level 35) would get 1980 total_wpf as opposed to the current 1805 or 1930 with DIV10

For a more reasonable high agi build of 30 agility and 10WM you'd get 1050 rather than the current 1000 or 1020 with DIV10.

DIV10 probably isn't needed since i can't imagine anybody actually going to 45 agility and it doesn't effect low agi builds much, but i included it to try and keep the 30 agility builds as close in line with what they are now.

[Uumdi]

Solid, thanks man.  Very simple and reasonable.

[Pentecost]

I'll let other, more capable people work out the details of just how to do it, but I would support an overhaul of weapon proficiency/weapon master that accomplishes the following:

1.) Reduces the weapon proficiency of builds with zero Weapon Master
2.) Increases the weapon proficiency of builds with a large amount of Weapon Master (>5)
3.) Leaves the weapon proficiency of builds with a moderate amount of Weapon Master (~3) where it is currently


If the threat of 200+ wpf bastard swords, heavy bastard swords, longswords etc would be an issue, then I suggest either:

1.) Increasing the strength requirements on these and other very fast weapons so that they cannot be abused by extreme builds
OR
2.) Adjusting the curve so that sub-100 wpf takes fewer wpf points and 140+ wpf takes many more wpf points

Currently, a build with 7 Weapon Master--a huge investment, considering for the same number of points you can ride any horse in the game or get another whole level of power strike or athletics--falls well short of achieving 111 wpf in three different weapon classes. I feel that someone who has invested this heavily in his ability to melee hybrid should have more weapon proficiency at his disposal than he does currently but that he shouldn't be able to reach over 170-180 wpf in a single weapon class with it.

[San]

Nice ideas guys. Just not a big fan of balanced builds losing wpf there. I think they should be relatively unchanged or boosted slightly.

I feel that

Adjusting the curve so that sub-100 wpf takes fewer wpf points and 140+ wpf takes many more wpf points

is ideal and slightly more complicated than simply flattening or steepening the wpf curve. It needs to be lenient for people who invest in WM at the lower levels so they can hyrbid, not make 0 WM too viable with balanced builds, and difficult to reach very high wpf levels. Making sure the WM skill is not too weak as wpf sources are changed is also a concern.

All I can really think of is to:

steepen the wpf curve at high levels
switch free wpf to agility (but less so than what leveling gives for 21 agi)
make higher values of WM give increasingly many more points so that pure builds won't gain much more max wpf than they do now, but it will be easy to get higher wpf values in secondary/tertiary weapons.

[Uumdi]

Agreed.  It just doesn't give you enough bang for your buck atm.  The more I crunch numbers, the more appropriate the current system seems, but thats only because I'm figuring in that weaponmaster gets maxed, rather than a couple points put in.  An incentive to pump 3 or 4 weaponmaster would be a flat rate benefit for each rank, say instead of 30,40,50,60,70,80,90,100,etc. it could be an even 70 / rank, and you pump points into it as needed.

70*WM + 25 + AGI*(5+((AGI-1)DIV5)) - 5/2*((AGI-1)DIV5)*(((AGI-1)DIV5)+1)

@ level 30, 3 Agility, 1WM = 110 total_wpf (currently 280)
@ level 30, 6 Agility, 2WM = 198 total_wpf (currently 320)
@ level 30, 12 Agility, 4WM = 380 total_wpf (currently 430)
@ level 30, 18 Agility, 6WM = 571 total_wpf (currently 580)
@ level 30, 24 Agility, 8WM = 771 total_wpf (currently 770)
@ level 30, 30 Agility, 10WM = 950 total_wpf (currently 1000)
@ level 30, 36 Agility, 12WM =  1157 total_wpf (currently 1270)


Not quite perfect, but you see it keeps middle builds somewhat intact, while even a 27/12 build will have enough wpf to function.  Furthermore allows you to invest a moderate amount of WM, without needing to max it in a balanced or agility build.  Finally, there's a dropoff in benefit with higher agility builds, so you won't see agility builds breaking the sound barrier.  You still need strength to swing your weapon effectively, you still need enough agility to have some finesse.


Also, just saw your post ^^ I agree San.  Was hoping with all this we'd find a way for ranged to get 150 in bow/throw and be able to pop 110 or so into 1handers, or melee hybrid get 130/130 or so.  Flattening the curve could be the appropriate fix.  Just how doable any of this is, I have no idea. 

[Paul]

agi instead of lvl seems interesting. increasing the WM gain slightly should also be done.

I'd get rid of the DIVx thingy because it makes total wpf calc hard(for me).
delta_wpf_agi=agi

With the current wpf0 and WM gain we'd have:
total_wpf=25+5*WM*(WM+1)+agi*(agi+1)/2

[Leshma]

Buffing attributes and making skills look bad, once again.

[Kafein]

Buffing attributes and making skills look bad, once again.

Leave the devs alone !

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[Leshma]

Him, nope. Balancers have special place in my (our) heart(s)

I'm more for skill oriented system, where attributes have one thing going about them (HP and movement speed for example, for STR and AGI), other than being requirement for having certain amount of skill points.

Currently attributes have more benefits than any skill. To achieve balance he wants to buff "weaker" party, agility, to give it power strength already has. And marginalize importance of skill points even more.

I'm pro hybrid because that means we play our builds, not the other way around. Server full of hybrid builds means that your role play is based on your actions in game, you aren't confined by some silly numbers that won't allow you to use that weapon or ride that horse

[Uumdi]

I'm hybrid too, m8.  18/18, 18/21 would benefit the most from this.  He's talking about a buff to the skill weaponmaster.  The passive wpf from agi would be pretty negligable for a min/maxer.  Powerstrike, athletics, and riding are all phenominal skills as is.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

My suggestion is still the only one which doesn't either slow things down or nerf hybrids.

[Tomas]

With the current wpf0 and WM gain we'd have:
total_wpf=25+5*WM*(WM+1)+agi*(agi+1)/2

That formula gives some very low wpfs - only 406 total_wpf @ 18 agi, 6WM, instead of the current 580.

If you like simplified formulas though how about

total_wpf = 15*Agi + 55*WM

With this you get the following total_wpfs
@ level 30, 3 Agility, 1WM = 100 total_wpf (currently 280)
@ level 30, 6 Agility, 2WM = 200 total_wpf (currently 320)
@ level 30, 12 Agility, 4WM = 400 total_wpf (currently 430)
@ level 30, 18 Agility, 6WM = 600 total_wpf (currently 580)
@ level 30, 24 Agility, 8WM = 800 total_wpf (currently 770)
@ level 30, 30 Agility, 10WM = 1000 total_wpf (currently 1000)
@ level 30, 36 Agility, 12WM =  1200 total_wpf (currently 1270)

PROs
- It nerfs low agi or 0WM builds
- It buffs medium -> high agi/WM builds
- It still allows medium agi, low WM builds as nicely viable, keeping medium -> high WM as mainly the choice of hybrids
- It is extremely simple to calculate and explain
- It is extremely simple to change

The only unintentional repercussion is a nerf is to extreme agi/WM builds, but these are rare &usually only for trolling anyway. The nerf is also pretty small and it just means there's no danger of breaking the system with stupidly high actual_wpfs.  Basically I don't care about these being nerfed slightly