Halfswording

[LordRichrich]

I just thought we could compile a list of problems with halfswording and then possible fixes for said suggestions!

I'll kick off

-Half swordings main feature is the stab, which becomes more powerful (in terms of raw damage). However, due to the animation, the length of the only current viable half-swords (bastard swords) and extremely reduced turning speed, it is EXTREMELY difficult to land a stab! Also, the left swing becomes shorter, you lose overhead and all swings are slower and do less damage. In short, the advantage of half swording is almost a disadvantage, and does nowhere near weigh out.

[Erzengel]

Possible fix: remove halfswording. 

[LordRichrich]

Possible fix: remove halfswording. 

Or make it a viable play style? Why would you WANT it removed?

[Erzengel]

Just trolling. 

Halfswording really needs a buff. Nobody uses it. I even forgot that it exists.

[LordRichrich]

Just trolling. 

Halfswording really needs a buff. Nobody uses it. I even forgot that it exists.

Any particular problems to add to the list? Or well thought fixes?

[Jarlek]

Having 33p damage really is a bad thing, right?

Look, ofc it's not gonna be as good as the main mode (secondary mode is, ya know, secondary), but it can still be useful if you just know when to use it. I agree that the stab animation is inferior, but that's mainly because the normal 2h stab animation is really powerful. Yes, it's nowhere near the range, but that's how it is for polearms. That being said, it's not that bad to get a stab in, you just got to time it better.

Halfswording is meant to be used when you are in close quarters. You swing/stab with a wider grip to get less range so that you don't hit allies/objects. That's the main reason for it. And if you manage to sneak up on someone standing still, the high stab damage, together with a speed bonus, means you can get a devastatingly high damage first hit on people. Does it happen often? No, but it is still an option.

Btw, bastard swords are the least viable halfswording swords. The greatswords are much better for this.

[LordRichrich]

Having 33p damage really is a bad thing, right?

Look, ofc it's not gonna be as good as the main mode (secondary mode is, ya know, secondary), but it can still be useful if you just know when to use it. I agree that the stab animation is inferior, but that's mainly because the normal 2h stab animation is really powerful. Yes, it's nowhere near the range, but that's how it is for polearms. That being said, it's not that bad to get a stab in, you just got to time it better.

Halfswording is meant to be used when you are in close quarters. You swing/stab with a wider grip to get less range so that you don't hit allies/objects. That's the main reason for it. And if you manage to sneak up on someone standing still, the high stab damage, together with a speed bonus, means you can get a devastatingly high damage first hit on people. Does it happen often? No, but it is still an option.

Btw, bastard swords are the least viable halfswording swords. The greatswords are much better for this.

33p on WHICH 2h?
And why should secondary mode not be as useful? It doesn't even use the same WPF! And on the bastard sword, the cute becomes 23c, with 6PS and 154 wpf I quite often bounce off mail with the left swing, sometimes with right.

If half swording is meant to be used CQC, why give it different WPF than it's main mode...?
The high stab damage, with shitty animation and shitty reach (and not many people run fast enough in normal armour to get a good enough speed bonus)

Your argument boils down to it being a highly situational weapon, arguably the most situational in the game. That's ridiculous, no weapon should be so niche (discounting daggers, sticks and other style/gimmick weapons)

[Jarlek]

33p on WHICH 2h?
And why should secondary mode not be as useful? It doesn't even use the same WPF! And on the bastard sword, the cute becomes 23c, with 6PS and 154 wpf I quite often bounce off mail with the left swing, sometimes with right.

If half swording is meant to be used CQC, why give it different WPF than it's main mode...?
The high stab damage, with shitty animation and shitty reach (and not many people run fast enough in normal armour to get a good enough speed bonus)

Your argument boils down to it being a highly situational weapon, arguably the most situational in the game. That's ridiculous, no weapon should be so niche (discounting daggers, sticks and other style/gimmick weapons)

Longsword is 33p at +3 in half sword mode (base 25p), German Greatsword is even more. You are using the Bastard Sword (base pierce, 21) and as I said, the bastard sword is the worst to use halfswording with.

Why would a secondary mode not be as good as the primary mode? Gee, I wonder why. Oh, wait. Because it is secondary! I tried to mention that, but you must have failed to seen it, same as with me mentioning the bastard sword being the worst to halfsword with. Try reading the posts you reply to. But if you want me to spell it out for you: If the secondary mode is better than the primary mode, then it should just be switched to that the secondary mode becomes the primary one. Primary = first, secondary = second.

As for why it uses pole wpf? Well, because that's the animations you are switching to. Same as throwing axes uses 1h wpf when you use it in melee, same as langes messer uses 2h wpf when you have it in 2h mode, same as bastard swords use 1h wpf when you use them with a shield. In addition, as the devs said a long time ago: "the primary mode on 2hs is already strong. We wont make it use 2h wpf without a reducing the main mode."

Yes, you do lose swing damage. That's one of the tradeoffs. You lose swing damage and gain stab damage. Think about how it would be balanced if you kept the swing damage while at the same time got the increased stab damage. You mentioned the left swing glances more than the right swing? Sure, that's one of the cons with the polearm animations. Polearm users can deal with it, why can't you? If you really have a problem with glancing, do what I do: Hold the swings. You can get a 1.6x to damage that way.

And I like how you call the polearm stab a shitty animation with shitty reach. Makes it so fun with all the 2h users who whines about the OP polestab. It's shorter, yes, and glances more, yes, but that's what you get for the extra damage. Sure, it takes more from you to do a good stab, but when you do, you do massive damage.

I laughed when you said "Your argument boils down to it being a highly situational weapon". I never said that. The weapon is already really good. It's the halfswording MODE that is highly situational. Nothing wrong with the weapon, the weapons are still powerful and dangerous. The halfsword mode not being optimal in most situations does not change one thing with how the weapon performs in it's primary mode. Don't be an idiot. It's not a niche weapon because it's secondary mode is situational. Halfswording just makes the already versatile 2h swords even more versatile.

To end this: Is halfswording situational? Yes. Is it worse than the primary mode in most situations? Yes. Is it completely useless? No.

[LordRichrich]

Longsword is 33p at +3 in half sword mode (base 25p), German Greatsword is even more. You are using the Bastard Sword (base pierce, 21) and as I said, the bastard sword is the worst to use halfswording with.

Why would a secondary mode not be as good as the primary mode? Gee, I wonder why. Oh, wait. Because it is secondary! I tried to mention that, but you must have failed to seen it, same as with me mentioning the bastard sword being the worst to halfsword with. Try reading the posts you reply to. But if you want me to spell it out for you: If the secondary mode is better than the primary mode, then it should just be switched to that the secondary mode becomes the primary one. Primary = first, secondary = second.

As for why it uses pole wpf? Well, because that's the animations you are switching to. Same as throwing axes uses 1h wpf when you use it in melee, same as langes messer uses 2h wpf when you have it in 2h mode, same as bastard swords use 1h wpf when you use them with a shield. In addition, as the devs said a long time ago: "the primary mode on 2hs is already strong. We wont make it use 2h wpf without a reducing the main mode."

Yes, you do lose swing damage. That's one of the tradeoffs. You lose swing damage and gain stab damage. Think about how it would be balanced if you kept the swing damage while at the same time got the increased stab damage. You mentioned the left swing glances more than the right swing? Sure, that's one of the cons with the polearm animations. Polearm users can deal with it, why can't you? If you really have a problem with glancing, do what I do: Hold the swings. You can get a 1.6x to damage that way.

And I like how you call the polearm stab a shitty animation with shitty reach. Makes it so fun with all the 2h users who whines about the OP polestab. It's shorter, yes, and glances more, yes, but that's what you get for the extra damage. Sure, it takes more from you to do a good stab, but when you do, you do massive damage.

I laughed when you said "Your argument boils down to it being a highly situational weapon". I never said that. The weapon is already really good. It's the halfswording MODE that is highly situational. Nothing wrong with the weapon, the weapons are still powerful and dangerous. The halfsword mode not being optimal in most situations does not change one thing with how the weapon performs in it's primary mode. Don't be an idiot. It's not a niche weapon because it's secondary mode is situational. Halfswording just makes the already versatile 2h swords even more versatile.

To end this: Is halfswording situational? Yes. Is it worse than the primary mode in most situations? Yes. Is it completely useless? No.

Never balance items or animations off +3's or any looms. Silly.
The primary-secondary thing, we seem to disagree on. You see it as ranking, I see it as A and B, no order of ranking, they just do something different. Sheesh.

WPF argument - flamberge. Throwing axes become a 1h weapon, the langes messer use 2h, bastard + shield user 1h, but holding a 2h in a different place makes it a polearm? No

I never said KEEP swing damage, just the half sword swing damages need to be individually balanced. My point wasn't that left swing glances more than right (I mean c'mon, you complain about MY lack of reading skills? You could just be civil rather than insulting y'know, a discussion doesn't have to become a chest beating argument), my point was, that spefically on the bastard sword, the left swing is too low damage, and needs an increase.

My argument was never that the weapons that use half swording are bad, it's half swording itself that it bad. The 2h's in 2h mode are perfectly fine. I'm talking about halfswording specifically , buffing/changing halfswording can be done without changing the base 2h primary mode. No one wants the half sword to be optimal in ALL situations, that would be silly. It should perform well where it is intended, in close range. I've never said anything about how it should be used, I thought it was implied. But with a short glancy stab, and sideswings that do little damage, it's ISN'T useful currently compared to the 2h in its primary mode.

And half swording only increases versatility of 2h's within hybrids, most of the 2h's aren't pole/2h hybrid (I believe you are? As well as 1h and other things?)

I also bolded two sections of your quote that I believe contradict each other.
Please let me know (preferably in a civil manner) if I failed to address any of your points (I'm not great at block text replies) and perhaps we can continue this DISCUSSION without unnecessary insults and "I'm right, there is no alternative"

[Jarlek]

You still fail at reading. If you can't see how the two parts you bolded did NOT conflict, then I pity you. Here's a hint. Weapon and weapon mode is not the same. The weapon does not become situational just because the secondary mode is situational.

About flamberge: I am all for making that one use polearm wpf. Problem? Besides, you bring up the only weapon which doesn't fit with what I wrote. One weapon among many does not mean that what I said was wrong, it means there are an exception to the rule. Changing animations changes wpf needed. The end. Also note the quote-by-memory in my first post about why why the devs want to keep halfswording in polearm wpf.

And you STILL don't get the primary-secondary thing? Look, this isn't about us not agreeing on what it means, this is you refusing to understand that a weapon has a main mode (2h mode for the 2h swords) and a secondary mode (halfswording for 2h swords). Main mode you for basic everyday use, and secondary mode for special circumstances. Throwing axes are meant to be thrown, but the secondary, very situational ability, is to use them in melee. 2h swords are meant to be swung in 2h mode, but the secondary, very situational ability, is to half sword them to get a good, but shorter stab and a shorter left swing to not hit objects as easily.

You did mention that your left swing glances more than your right:

I quite often bounce off mail with the left swing, sometimes with right.

Doesn't really have much to do about the discussion, I was just telling you how the polearm animations are generally worse glance-wise and that you'll have to remember that when you use the left swing. You keep mentioning how bad the damage is on the left swing when it is the same for both swings.

Now, I don't know how many times I got to say this but: Halfswording is NOT bad. Just because YOU people fail at using does not change the fact that it is a good mode if you know how you can use it. You say that the normal 2h mode is still good in close quarters, so using halfswording isn't worth it. You are correct, the 2h, even the long ones, are still very good in close quarters and still pass through a lot of solid objects, but that does NOT change the fact that you get a +7 bonus to stab damage. Yes, you need to actually be good at stabbing to use that extra damage because of the pole animation, but that does not mean it's useless. It means you got to do stuff right to pull it off.

You are correct in that halfswording is best for 2h with some pole wpf. Isn't that a good thing? Going pure 2h wpf means you are an axeman, mauler or swordswinger. Going 2h with some pole wpf means that you are a dedicated 2h swordsman. Fuck pure builds, let hybrids be the best ones to fully utilize 2h swords. You got a problem with that?

For the record, I am currently a 1h/archer.

Sorry if I seem insulting, but I am just tired of people whining about halfswording being useless. It really isn't. Halfswording is a great tool, you just have to know how to use it. Sadly, man people don't want to or don't manage to use it to it's full potential. It's similar to how kicks where looked at 1 or 2 years ago. Nobody used kicks and thought it was a way too situational and underpowered move. That wasn't because kick was underpowered, they were even more powerful then than they are now, but people just didn't use them. That's how halfswording is now. It's not halfswording that is weak, it is people just not using them.

[Vibe]

Longsword is 33p at +3 in half sword mode (base 25p)

selling MW longsword, pm me

[Teeth]

Zapper doing the Zapper again? You are stating your opinion as a fact and when he addresses your point and disagrees with it, you tell him that he sucks at reading. GG

Look, ofc it's not gonna be as good as the main mode (secondary mode is, ya know, secondary)

The name secondary mode does not at all imply that it needs to be worse than the primary mode. It only implies that it is different. In my opinion secondary mode should add useful versatility, for example the poleaxe. The blunt mode is pretty viable and not at all that situational. Same should apply to halfswording.

Halfswording is meant to be used when you are in close quarters. You swing/stab with a wider grip to get less range so that you don't hit allies/objects. That's the main reason for it. And if you manage to sneak up on someone standing still, the high stab damage, together with a speed bonus, means you can get a devastatingly high damage first hit on people. Does it happen often? No, but it is still an option.

Wrong, the only viable use for halfswording is when you pick up a 2h as a polearmer, because the extra stab damage is almost negated by the lack of wpf if you are a 2h.

(click to show/hide)

15% damage for every 100 wpf. Say that you have 150 wpf. That is a 22,5% damage reduction. 33 pierce * 0,775 = 25,5 which is a staggering 0,5 pierce more than the regular 2h wpf mode.

Add the significantly lower speed to that and you have a useless secondary mode for any 2h. Then the cqc swinging part. The polearm animations are much more horizontal and get stuck a lot more on teammates then 2h swings, which are rather forgiving and can be angled freely to not hit any teammates.

Nobody ofcourse ever uses a 2h as a polearmer so I think it is safe to say that halfswording is useless. No 2h ever uses it, except Zapper ofcourse, but he is special. The hybrid 2h/polearm point is valid though, but even then long 2h's do fine in cqc and no one is going to hybridize to make better use of the secondary mode, cause it is rather obsolete.

I laughed when you said "Your argument boils down to it being a highly situational weapon". I never said that. The weapon is already really good. It's the halfswording MODE that is highly situational. Nothing wrong with the weapon, the weapons are still powerful and dangerous. The halfsword mode not being optimal in most situations does not change one thing with how the weapon performs in it's primary mode. Don't be an idiot. It's not a niche weapon because it's secondary mode is situational. Halfswording just makes the already versatile 2h swords even more versatile.

I laugh at you laughing and then making this a point and calling him an idiot, god Zapper grow the fuck up, thanks for reminding me why you disgusted me.

As for why it uses pole wpf? Well, because that's the animations you are switching to. Same as throwing axes uses 1h wpf when you use it in melee, same as langes messer uses 2h wpf when you have it in 2h mode, same as bastard swords use 1h wpf when you use them with a shield. In addition, as the devs said a long time ago: "the primary mode on 2hs is already strong. We wont make it use 2h wpf without a reducing the main mode."

Does not need to be the case at all, the flamberge not fitting this does in fact mean that halfswording doesn't necessarily have to be used with polearm wpf, because of the animations.

And on that note, make halfswording use 2h wpf cause it looks fucking cool and was used a lot in tha real life. It is silly that it is completely useless in the game.

[no_rules_just_play]

gentlemen, relax

[Kafein]

I suggest making 2h actually collide with walls and such when they should. Playing 2 minutes on siege should convince anybody there is something not quite right with object collisions.

[Malaclypse]

The single greatest nerf to half-swording was when the switching animation changed to become much slower, disallowing the appearance that one's character was mimicking a lewd act on the shaft of their sword. End the tyranny. Bring back the pud pounders.