Author Topic: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?  (Read 17893 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Cris

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Renown: 121
  • Infamy: 23
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Merc_Cris, Cris, TestSubject
  • IRC nick: Cris
So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« on: December 06, 2012, 09:22:50 pm »
+32
Well, is it?

When compared to damage and accuracy of other ranged played styles and the quality of build at high levels, the limitations of it might just surprise you... and remember, the whole point of horse archery is the ability of shooting off horseback "at speed".

Please note: We are looking at a class, not at good people that still use it well - melee players as skilled as the best Horse Archers will beat you on a melee  fight in peasant gear, dear I say even at peasant levels - it doesn't mean peasant gear is overpowered, it just means they are good


Well, there are two main builds at attainable levels:


The damage build: 18 strength and 21 agility
                                                                   --> This build lets you have PD6 and use nicer bows (great for strat if you don't like yumi), get riding 7 for the best horse, 7 weapon master and 3 Horse Archery.

The accurate build: 15 strength and 24 agility
                                                                  --> 5PD, but it allows an extra point in riding, and most importantly 4 horse archery and 8 weapon master.
                                                                       This is a big damage and bow limitation tradeoff.

You all know that Horse Archery damage is really low, PD6 HAs still take several shots to kill you, and PD5 HAs like myself will take an insane amount of shots to kill someone in any kind of good gear, even with loomed arrows and bow. Most of you will good armor and good memories will be aware of this fact.

Obviously, any mounted range is very annoying if you aren't ranged, and Horse archers should not be as deadly and accurate as foot archers.


Nevertheless, look at this example.

Level 32 Build

4 Horse Archery
172 archery (132 points after -40 penalty from 4HA_
5 Power Draw
Riding 8
4 Power strike (irrelevant, but if you needed to know where the spare points were, they are here :-P)

Champion courser
MW horn bow.


Please note: This is the accurate build, so you would expect some measure of accuracy from a level 32 dedicated horse archer.


Screenshots at speed.

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Video: Look at reticule





Does it look really balanced to you?


I believe that as a class horse archery is severely unbalanced. A dedicated class, any class, should be able to be good at something at high levels.

Horse archers right now:

- Can only be really accurate with a high damage build if you slow down greatly before shooting
- Lack decent/balanced accuracy if opted for a more accurate build
- Pay masses of upkeep, due to the high upkeep for arrows design to balance upkeep payment for foot archers, who run very cheap overall gear.
- Have a -10WPP penalty for using the very same skill that is design to make players better at shooting on a horse (horse archery is supposed to reduce mounted penalty [-20% stats], for total reduction you need 10HA points.
- Do not receive speed bonus for arrows shot (last i checked), but are affected by speed bonus against us.
- Thanks to the HA WPP penalty, HAs load bows much slower.


Once again, I totally agree that mounted ranged are annoying, and obviously HA should not be as accurate at speed as archers on the floor. But right now the class is really underpowered.

The fix to test that I propose is the elimination of the Horse Archery -10 wpp penalty, it hurts accuracy, it sucks for siege and strat, when horses are not used, and it also goes against the very point of the HA skill.

Discuss and thanks for reading
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline CrazyCracka420

  • Minute Valuable Contributor
  • Strategus Councillor
  • **
  • Renown: 1950
  • Infamy: 794
  • cRPG Player Sir White Pawn A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Welp
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Vaegirs
  • Game nicks: Huseby
  • IRC nick: Steam name: crazycracka420
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2012, 09:29:21 pm »
+4
not sure I have a strong opinion one way or another (or not that I care to share at this point), but I think your problem may be that you're riding a courser as a horse archer, and you only have 4 PD.  Yes you have 4 HA skill, but you're riding a fucking loomed courser (aka fastest horse in the game) so of course your accuracy is going to be diminished (the faster you go, the less accurate you become).

Try using an arabian warhorse, it's the best horse in the game (if you are willing to sacrifice strength to get the agility you need to ride it).  I say this as someone who rides a champion courser (but isn't trying to shoot projectiles from the fastest horse in the game).

Also for the weakness argument, you only have 4 PD...so that's part of the issue, not just the lack of speed bonus. 

Does someone know the exact damage nerf you get from shooting on horseback?  Is it the same percent of reduced damage you get from melee from horseback?
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 - Stolen from Macropussy

Offline JackieChan

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 851
  • Infamy: 118
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Crève salope / Master of left spam
    • View Profile
    • CRPG PATCH!
  • Game nicks: Byzantium_BD_JackieChan
  • IRC nick: JackieChan
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2012, 09:31:41 pm »
+14
Im up for any form of HA buff, this class has suffered  nerfs after nerfs which werent even justified.

Nerfing a class just because a minority of players are doing great at it is stupid. (and it made me and many people rage quit Horse archery when the last patch reduced HA skill effectivness).



Also for the weakness argument, you only have 4 PD...so that's part of the issue, not just the lack of speed bonus. 


He said he has 5 PD.


EDIT: i would totally go back horse archery if it was returned to its old state (before the last patchs-nerfs)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 09:43:26 pm by JackieChan »
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 Wهاهاهاهاهاهاهاهاهاه

Offline Oggrinsky

  • Knight
  • ***
  • Renown: 61
  • Infamy: 10
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Sons of Zardoz
  • Game nicks: Tzadik_Oggrinsky, Ghazi_Suleiman, MissOggynistic
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2012, 09:34:07 pm »
0
Yeah man, speak that Truth.

Offline CrazyCracka420

  • Minute Valuable Contributor
  • Strategus Councillor
  • **
  • Renown: 1950
  • Infamy: 794
  • cRPG Player Sir White Pawn A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Welp
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Vaegirs
  • Game nicks: Huseby
  • IRC nick: Steam name: crazycracka420
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2012, 09:57:14 pm »
0
My bad, didn't see the 5 PD, mis-read the post.  HA's do seem relatively weak, but I think they should be weaker than a foot archer...

That being said, I think that Horse Archery should not lower WPF in archery (I didn't realize it did, that's pretty ridiculous, especially considering PD lowers WPF (or used to) and the whole point of HA skill is to INCREASE accuracy...

So maybe I'm also not understanding that point
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 - Stolen from Macropussy

Offline Akynos

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 369
  • Infamy: 157
  • cRPG Player
  • Is now an agiwhore :*(
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Skono, Rollmops
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2012, 10:08:05 pm »
-2
Problem with HA isn't the balance, it's the hate. Anyone who isn't HA will hate that class for what it is.
I think the problem with multiplayer warband is that we still use classes that were meant for single player. HA is one of them.
Result = Nerf HA until no one is willing to pick it up. Sure, HA is underpowered. But the majority of players will stand against a buff, and I am one of them.

Solution? Don't use HA if you want to be effective. Take mainstream classes such as 1h or 2h. I hate to kill variety over balance, but a tradeoff is unfortunately needed in this mod.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Kudos to Kulin_Ban for the video

Offline Macropus

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1668
  • Infamy: 296
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Knight
    • View Profile
  • Game nicks: Macropus
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2012, 10:19:07 pm »
+2
Horse archers need some love. Buff them!

Offline Teeth

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 2550
  • Infamy: 1057
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2012, 10:21:32 pm »
+3
Mounted ranged is only fun for you playing it, the rest of us hates the existence of the class. And for all you turds that are going to yell at me that you should be able to play the game in a way you like, you're wrong. Cause I would like to play the game as a flamberge wielding centaur with a jetpack and I can't.

So for being a selfish dick, you get the effectivity of a stone, seems fair to me.

Offline JackieChan

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 851
  • Infamy: 118
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Crève salope / Master of left spam
    • View Profile
    • CRPG PATCH!
  • Game nicks: Byzantium_BD_JackieChan
  • IRC nick: JackieChan
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2012, 10:24:42 pm »
+4
Mounted ranged is only fun for you playing it, the rest of us hates the existence of the class. And for all you turds that are going to yell at me that you should be able to play the game in a way you like, you're wrong. Cause I would like to play the game as a flamberge wielding centaur with a jetpack and I can't.

So for being a selfish dick, you get the effectivity of a stone, seems fair to me.
what about Horse xbow men? they are more effective in anyway compared to HA and get double the hate. Not a really good logic you got there!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 Wهاهاهاهاهاهاهاهاهاه

Offline Teeth

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 2550
  • Infamy: 1057
  • cRPG Player Sir Black Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2012, 10:26:50 pm »
+1
what about Horse xbow men? they are more effective in anyway compared to HA and get double the hate. Not a really good logic you got there!
I said mounted ranged, all inclusive. Horse crossbowmen are too strong. they should all be below viable. Atleast HX can't ride around you spraying arrows though, there is more time to get to cover.

Offline JackieChan

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 851
  • Infamy: 118
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • Crève salope / Master of left spam
    • View Profile
    • CRPG PATCH!
  • Game nicks: Byzantium_BD_JackieChan
  • IRC nick: JackieChan
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2012, 10:30:26 pm »
-2
I said mounted ranged, all inclusive. Horse crossbowmen are too strong. they should all be below viable. Atleast HX can't ride around you spraying arrows though, there is more time to get to cover.
Yeah horse archer shoot twice as much... with half of the arrows bouncing of armors compared to HX who make a full hit each time and have pin point accuracy.
But i agree that Horse crossbowmen need balancing, one way or another.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 Wهاهاهاهاهاهاهاهاهاه

Offline peter_afca7

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 224
  • Infamy: 113
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: BLABLA
  • Game nicks: BLABLABLA
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2012, 10:30:54 pm »
-7
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 09:02:09 pm by peter_afca7 »

Offline Tore

  • Item Manager
  • *
  • Renown: 882
  • Infamy: 329
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 10:31:21 pm »
+3
im in that video

Offline Kafein

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 2203
  • Infamy: 808
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 10:33:50 pm »
-3
I agree with Teeth in that HA and HX should not be good, and only attract those that actually like the gameplay of those classes. We have enough people that play to spoil the fun of others as it is.

Offline San

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Renown: 1456
  • Infamy: 143
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • 1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
    • View Profile
    • My youtube Brawl videos
  • Faction: Chaos
  • Game nicks: San_of_Chaos
  • IRC nick: San
Re: So, is Horse Archery Skill really Balanced?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2012, 10:35:45 pm »
+2
We know. That's at speed, too, and hopefully the ranged speed bonus can be fixed for that. I don't support any direct tweaks except for wpf penalty. I think it would be balanced for HA to be more speed-based-  do better damage at speed and close up, and poorer damage when moving away (and imo when barely moving, but good accuracy).

For people dealing with HA, they can simply trot behind you or to your side the entire round and shoot at you. If you loom bow and arrows for quantity over quality, you could very well carry over 80 arrows.