Tundra Area Mutual Defense Agreement (TAMDA) [NA]

[Krosis]

I direct you to this link, good sir:

http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/holy-guard-%28hg%29-change-of-diplomacy/

that looks fairly new.

Krosis, why are you wondering this now when we are well at peace? We (remnant) were in fact the aggressors, however HG is apart of us on strat. Essentially the same thing as the VE (tkov, mb, hoc) but much smaller. So of course they helped us out, because we are one faction. Nobody else in TAMDA provided any other support other then mercs against you guys, same for the VE war.

Although I have no idea why any of  that is relevant considering that was a very long time ago and everyone is at peace now. Also HG is now a separate faction in strat but Remnant and HG are still apart of TAMDA.

I'm just pointing out what nobody seemed to notice when Elindor posted what he posted, and how he is contradicting himself now. Not really trying to get an argument out of all of this. I was just wondering what Elindor had to say about it.

[Tom Cruise]

What are you talking about? He said exactly what I said.   

If a TAMDA clan goes offensive, any retaliatory actions by the clan they attacked will not be something that TAMDA members are required to get involved in.

Wasnt trying to have an argument either, just telling you the facts

[Elindor]

Thanks Tom,

Krosis...its simple.

Remnant aggressed and in their advance they took Sungetche.  In return, Hospitaller took Sungetche back....all fair.
TAMDA would not get involved in that.

The warning was that if Hosp CONTINUE further and THEMSELVES became the aggressors, TAMDA would get involved.
Once they got Sungetche back, things were returned to their original situation.

Does that not make sense?

[Krosis]

Thanks Tom,

Krosis...its simple.

Remnant aggressed and in their advance they took Sungetche.  In return, Hospitaller took Sungetche back....all fair.
TAMDA would not get involved in that.

The warning was that if Hosp CONTINUE further and THEMSELVES became the aggressors, TAMDA would get involved.
Once they got Sungetche back, things were returned to their original situation.

Does that not make sense?

So tell me if I'm getting this wrong..


After Remnant attacked us, you think it would have been unfair for Hospitaller to attack back the Remnant FACTION, because then WE would have been the aggressors?

[KaleLord]

So tell me if I'm getting this wrong..


After Remnant attacked us, you think it would have been unfair for Hospitaller to attack back the Remnant FACTION, because then WE would have been the aggressors?

This is what's in my mind.

[Elindor]

So tell me if I'm getting this wrong..


After Remnant attacked us, you think it would have been unfair for Hospitaller to attack back the Remnant FACTION, because then WE would have been the aggressors?

YOU OWNED SUNGETCHE
REMNANT TOOK IT
YOU TOOK IT BACK
THIS WAS FINE WITH TAMDA BECAUSE REMNANT TOOK IT FROM YOU FIRST
HAD YOU ATTACKED HOLDINGS IN THE TUNDRA PAST SUNGETCHE THEN TAMDA WOULD HAVE GOTTEN INVOLVED.

Yes, TAMDA would have gotten involved if you launched an assault on holdings in the tundra instead of stopping at taking Sungetche back.

This is a none issue now though HG is not part of Remnant. 

[ArysOakheart]

Let it go Elindor. If they really think its that big of a deal then let them deal with it. People have been questioning TAMDA since the start, though it's been plainly clear what it means. So if you want to go to war with TAMDA because of some shit, say so, otherwise quit shitposting about technicalities. The best way to find out about TAMDA would be attacking us.

[Aztek]

For the record Hospitaller has no issue's with the TAMDA or any of its members, along with Remnant.

I'm sure Krosis was just curious about a situation that could have happened while we were fighting Remnant, which is a none issue now so no point going into it.

[Elindor]

I agree Aztek, thanks for being levelheaded about it.

Its maybe simplest put this way:

Normal alliances ally OFFENSIVELY and DEFENSIVELY
TAMDA allies only DEFENSIVELY (and only within the Tundra).

So if X Clan attacks someone, we dont help them attack.  If X Clan gets attacked in their fief outside the Tundra, we dont help them.
We only help X Clan if THEY attacked INSIDE the tundra.

[Turboflex]

The issue is outside those basics. He was wondering why Tamda would have interviened against Hospitaller advances past Sengetche despite Remnant/HG being the clear aggressors in launching a war of conquest against Hospitaller. Under the longstanding conventions of warfare, it's usually accepted that the defender of an assault has a right to counter attack into the aggressor's land if the initial assault is defeated in theirs.

In that case it would seem Tamda functions as more than a simple defensive alliance, but includes hard territorial guarantees no matter what the circumstances.

Membership in TAMDA is NOT meant to be a "safeguard" at home while member factions initiate
offensive wars elsewhere.  Member factions that are deemed to be a liability by their own
offensive initiatives will be removed from TAMDA to protect the other member factions.

[Elindor]

Well, TAMDA is being rewritten as we speak between the member factions and will be reposted soon.

It will be largely the same but rewritten to reflect a shift in mission.


----


So much of this could be a moot point. 

But yes, Turbo, TAMDA from that perspective is an alliance...but as I said, only defensively.  We're not gonna help our members attack out, but we're gonna help them defend in.  To contrast, most alliances do both.

EDIT - and yes that quote still stands.  If someone is always aggressing, TAMDA is gonna vote to boot them.

[CrazyCracka420]

Well yeah, that's the difference between a defense pact (what TAMDA is) and an alliance.  Although an alliance would usually require communication between the allies before one goes on an offensive campaign.

[Elindor]

TAMDA is currently being re-written by the existing members as its mission has shifted since its inception.


To expand, in some ways, the concerns about inconsistencies are true - however TAMDA did state it would remove member factions that "caused trouble for the agreement by being aggressive".  The conflict partially came in how TAMDA was formed and the interests of Teutonic/Remnant/HG at that time.  The connection between Remnant and HG also caused some confusing situations.

The new mission of this group will be one of creating an area in the map where free trade can exist for small factions and individuals without being in the shadow of large clans and conglomerates.  It is currently being rewritten as a collaboration between the member clans and the issues of how to deal with member clans being aggressors elsewhere is something we are addressing currently.

The new mission may be NON EXPANSIONARY completely.  Or, it may BE A DEFENSIVE AGREEMENT as some have stated TAMDA is/was, where we do not aid each other in foreign wars but we do if someone invades into the Tundra regardless of what they have done elsewhere (and if the group deemed a group to be causing too much trouble they could remove them from the agreement).


I will link to its new thread when it is ready.  Locking this for now.

[Elindor]

Here is the new agreement.
http://forum.meleegaming.com/diplomacy/free-lands-of-the-tundra/msg719244/#msg719244