Author Topic: Political correctness and all that jazz  (Read 1905 times)

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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2012, 04:52:53 pm »
+1


Really? I would love to explain that to the white European eunouchs that served in the harrems of the middle east. The fact is that up until the 14th century, the most common slave owners were Arabs who are not white (at least, by most definitions). In addition, black slave owners were extremely common. As a matter of fact, it still is today. Most slavery today (and it is common) occurs in African countries. Mauritania outlawed slavery just in the 1990's and it is still extremely common there. Or how about we find the ex slaves of north America? Those with some basic history knowledge will know that plenty of them (about 80% of the original population) were deported to what would soon be known as Liberia, a then US colony. These slaves did, as their first act, enslave the local black population and use the plantation methods they learned in the US (that had been abolished after the civil war) to make a profit. Slavery was not abolished until the 50's and the apartheid, one of the worst in the world, between "American" blacks and the "locals" didn't end until the 80's, when a "local" black was elected.....which resulted in 3 civil wars funded by the US....which resulted in today's utterly abhorrent situation in Liberia.

Throwing money at a problem has fixed precicely nothing in the history of everything. Addressing the real issues, like the highly anti-intellectual stance of black and latino culture, would help more. But people like you would cry foul at such thing and would rather blame it on not enough "care", "money" or simply "racism" (whatever that means lately) rather than the elephant on the room.

Pretty much this. Slavery was common the world over. The major difference was that the British empire and others industrialised it on a scale not seen before. But in most cultures of the time it was pretty accepted. So it's all very well us going 'slavers disgusting people'. But to them, to the slaves (many of who lived in cultures that had enslaved people themselves), it was the norm of the time. And I find it hard to sit on a high horse and condemn people in the past for actions which were seen as normal then. Certainly modern day slavery still exists though and it isn't particularly the West who are involved.

I was going to make that point as well but couldn't be arsed to because I thought it was obvious. Money doesn't fix jack shit. The same reason why development agencies have to much money in poor countries. They can't spend it as fast as it comes in and it doesn't actually fix anything because it's more about social change and the resources needed to do that. Not just spending it on things which won't really help them if they can't help themselves.


Offline Arathian

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2012, 08:35:44 pm »
+2
Pretty much this. Slavery was common the world over. The major difference was that the British empire and others industrialised it on a scale not seen before. But in most cultures of the time it was pretty accepted. So it's all very well us going 'slavers disgusting people'. But to them, to the slaves (many of who lived in cultures that had enslaved people themselves), it was the norm of the time. And I find it hard to sit on a high horse and condemn people in the past for actions which were seen as normal then. Certainly modern day slavery still exists though and it isn't particularly the West who are involved.

Aaaactually, percentage wise, slavery from the 15th-18th century (where most of the slave trade happened) was much lower than in the past (except for a small period of time in the early 14th century where the pope forbid slavery and then the Spaniards found the Carribean so he kind of went 'fuck it'). The big difference is that, unlike in the past, most of the slaves didn't come locally or from the surrounding areas but from far-away lands to be sold to far-away lands. Still, in Ancient Greece (where slave culture is one of the best recorded), slaves made up about 30% of the Athenian republic population and Ilotes (slaves, essentially) made up about 60% (!!!) of the Spartan population. In the US, during the civil war, Slaves were less than 10% of the total population and the number dropped when the deportations to Liberia happened.

Not to mention stuff like the serfdom in Russia and Romania that was essentially slavery and included up to 90% of the actual population and it lasted until the abolition of serfdom in the early 20th century.

Or how about the Egyptians, that had, under law, forced labor for the benefit of the state at least a few months a year (unless you were a priest or a noble, which less than 5% of the population was). The pyramids didn't build themselves.


So, huge industrial scale? No. More systematic way? Absolutely yes. But even that wasn't unprecedented. I will only remind of the Christian slave trade by the Khans of the black sea in the 15-16th century. They sold upwards to 3 million Christian slaves (mostly Slavs, from which the bloody word "slave" comes from) to the Ottoman empire that, in turn, sold them to the rest of the Arab nations. It was said that during the height of the Ottoman empire you could find Hungarian slaves in freeking Oman. And it wasn't just them. The Barbari coast pirates raided until the 18th century and there were reports of even looting villages in Iceland. Barbari coast, in case you are wondering, was the old name of north-west African coast, ie Morroco, Algeria etc.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2012, 09:19:29 pm »
+1
Aaaactually, percentage wise, slavery from the 15th-18th century (where most of the slave trade happened) was much lower than in the past (except for a small period of time in the early 14th century where the pope forbid slavery and then the Spaniards found the Carribean so he kind of went 'fuck it'). The big difference is that, unlike in the past, most of the slaves didn't come locally or from the surrounding areas but from far-away lands to be sold to far-away lands. Still, in Ancient Greece (where slave culture is one of the best recorded), slaves made up about 30% of the Athenian republic population and Ilotes (slaves, essentially) made up about 60% (!!!) of the Spartan population. In the US, during the civil war, Slaves were less than 10% of the total population and the number dropped when the deportations to Liberia happened.

Not to mention stuff like the serfdom in Russia and Romania that was essentially slavery and included up to 90% of the actual population and it lasted until the abolition of serfdom in the early 20th century.

Or how about the Egyptians, that had, under law, forced labor for the benefit of the state at least a few months a year (unless you were a priest or a noble, which less than 5% of the population was). The pyramids didn't build themselves.


So, huge industrial scale? No. More systematic way? Absolutely yes. But even that wasn't unprecedented. I will only remind of the Christian slave trade by the Khans of the black sea in the 15-16th century. They sold upwards to 3 million Christian slaves (mostly Slavs, from which the bloody word "slave" comes from) to the Ottoman empire that, in turn, sold them to the rest of the Arab nations. It was said that during the height of the Ottoman empire you could find Hungarian slaves in freeking Oman. And it wasn't just them. The Barbari coast pirates raided until the 18th century and there were reports of even looting villages in Iceland. Barbari coast, in case you are wondering, was the old name of north-west African coast, ie Morroco, Algeria etc.

Well fair enough but I think my point was it was industrial for just one Empire to do that. Yeah the Roman empire and other nations had slaves before that. But 3.5 million odd slaves transported from the first recorded by British ships to the abolition. I'd say that's pretty industrial and considering other empires of the time had similar numbers, some actually estimated at more and also taking into account the British population only numbered 12 million by 1815. As a percentage of population this may be far smaller than other accounts in history, but the numbers of total people are certainly higher which is why I think it becomes industrialised. Fact is it was turned from a fairly unorganised and relatively random system into a fully flourishing, like you said, systematic business.

Yeah I've read enough history about the Ottoman Empire to know about the slaves taken in Europe for them. That's why there are watch towers around the whole of the med as well, particularly Italy where the city states used to constantly be raided by Ottoman and Barbary pirates. Was on the Amalfi coast a month or so ago and you can still see them.

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2012, 03:07:24 am »
+1
Did Arathian get permabanned for this thread?
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Offline Havoco

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2012, 03:21:49 am »
+1
Did Arathian get permabanned for this thread?

Good question. I guess that means no more politics. Yep, ban everyone here.
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Offline Smoothrich

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012, 03:36:52 am »
0
Good question. I guess that means no more politics. Yep, ban everyone here.

You see, cRPG forums are a society of givers and takers.  Some people give the permanent bans, the rest take them.  He wouldn't of been banned if his race didn't have a culture of dependence on others to do the moderating.
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2012, 03:43:39 am »
+1
Women and minorities were literally enslaved for hundreds of years to the institution of the white man.  Affirmative action or "politically correct" sensibilities is a chance for a modern society to fix the mistakes of past generations and give everyone an equal chance.

All everyone wants is people to be treated based on merit and ability rather than status from birth.  How do you expect that to happen if women are still being paid less for the same jobs, or funding for public education/healthcare/social services are garbage for poor, minority-filled districts.

ITT, people confusing equal opportunity with equal results.
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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2012, 04:43:29 am »
+1
Did Arathian get permabanned for this thread?
I really hope he didn't.

Also, a big + to Overdriven and Arathian. People that get offended just for the sake of it ... they make me want to get a gun permit.

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Offline Falka

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2012, 09:13:19 am »
+1
Just lulz. Where is the freedom of speech in cRPG?  :rolleyes:
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Offline Casimir

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2012, 04:37:33 pm »
+1
no way he got perma banned for this?
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Offline LordBerenger

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2012, 04:47:13 pm »
+1
no way he got perma banned for this?


In communism CRPG ban mods you! (Derp!)
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2012, 04:51:37 pm »
+1
Saying some cultures encourage being lazy/cheating/whatever more than others is borderline and I would certainly never ever say that in public, but it's not racism.

Offline Leshma

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2012, 04:52:20 pm »
-1
The reason blacks and hispanics in the US are living shitty lives right now is not because their grandfathers were oppressed by "da man". The Chinese had the same and they progressed, sometimes within 1 generation. It is because black culture in general, and in the US specifically, is fucking shitty. It promotes thuggery, laziness. It is anti-intellectual, tribalistic and, indeed, extremely racist. Some of the most racist people you can meet in the US right now are not white, but probably black people living in bad neighbourhoods blaming everything on "crakas".

Gypsies in Europe have a similar situation. Their culture is as shitty as shitty gets. It is NOT genes because many "gypsies" intergrate into the European society and blend is as well as any other after they completely abandon their culture. But the ones that keep their culture "pure" (and many choose to) as seen as the worst scum, and rightfully so (for many reasons I won't go over here. Most that live in Europe know why). In fact, self-identifying gypsies that are intergrated are...well...non-existent. On the other hand, people with gypsy racial background are not that uncommon, even in the US.

I guess this part is the reason why he got kicked out. He's probably only banned on forums.

I won't miss him, his way of trolling was annoying.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2012, 04:58:41 pm »
+1
I will dearly miss those passionating debates about morality, freedom of speech, religion and politics with arathian.

Offline Teeth

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Re: Political correctness and all that jazz
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2012, 06:12:40 pm »
+7
I thought Arathian was making some excellent points in this thread, if he got permabanned for this all my faith in the moderation of the forum is lost.

Saying some cultures encourage being lazy/cheating/whatever more than others is borderline and I would certainly never ever say that in public, but it's not racism.
I don't consider that borderline at all, because it is obviously true. It is a well established concept that because someone gets born into a certain environment, he gets a set of values and ethics, which in the case of black bad neighbourhoods, isn't exactly equipping him for a succesful life. That has nothing to do with race or gender, it is just culture. Culture is something you can change, culture is not tied to race. When it comes to ambition, work ethic and diligence, there are inferior cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_cycle

Maybe he put it quite bluntly by calling it 'black culture in general', still that leaves room for exceptions and does not describe it as a defining characteristic. It is true that a large part of the black population in America is stuck in this poverty cycle.

If this is indeed the reason that he got banned, then fuck the moderator that did it. This kind of stuff is exactly what this thread is about, this irrational fear of anything that could vaguely be interpreted as racist or discriminating. Poor minorities go about blaming discrimination so they don't have to face their own shortcomings and we allow them. Affirmative action is fucking racist.

Anyway, culture =/= race. The average Chinese work ethic is much better than the average Afro-American from the ghetto's work ethic. Ban me.

Affirmative action is a chance for a modern society to fix the mistakes of past generations and give everyone an equal chance.

All everyone wants is people to be treated based on merit and ability rather than status from birth.
You are disagreeing with yourself here, affirmative action means picking people based on their gender and race even if they are lacking in merit and ability compared to someone else. Postive discrimination is a disgusting concept.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 06:16:19 pm by Teeth »