Author Topic: The root of all misery in cRPG  (Read 7260 times)

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Offline XyNox

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2012, 12:08:11 am »
+2
This is a nice post, but even when cmp released official stats that proved that for both NA and EU that archery damage was less then 10% of all damage dealt and that archery mounted was less then 1.5% damage dealt, they still decided to nerf the hell out of the class a bunch of times.

Just... Give up. People don't like getting shot.

Well Tears, I know. But people also dont like to get nerfed for no reason and I am not talking about the kiting part. Still it happens. And I am pretty sure if there wasnt a new archery nerf thread by every full hour it wouldnt happen this frequent. I cant really believe it myself but maybe devs think if archers dont state their opinions it means they in fact agree with every nerf.

Anyway ... I dont want to play with a 10 pierce bow that gives me -100 WPF and -10 ath in 3 patches from now. Hoping that devs read this is the only thing I can do.
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Offline Sultan Eren

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2012, 12:14:13 am »
-4
u know what

fuck yourself
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Offline Tears of Destiny

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2012, 12:15:06 am »
+11
u know what

fuck yourself
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Offline San

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2012, 12:21:26 am »
+3
Seems to me wpf is messed up. Increase the exponential curve on wpf requirements, yet give us more points so it'll be very difficult to get 180 wpf, but you can allocate points to get 60-90 wpf easily if you invest in WM (which all archers do and most melee don't fully invest, higher WM gives many more points than the previous level.)

It should be extremely easy to hybridize a little bit with 6-8 WM without gimping yourself, with skill points being more of an issue.

Offline Havoco

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2012, 12:25:09 am »
+2
#BRINGBACK2010GF2012
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Offline Falka

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2012, 12:38:51 am »
-1
(click to show/hide)
But currently with 8 WM sacrificing 6 wpf in archery you will get 67 wpf in sth else, so I don't see the problem.

From my perspective archery was fine before patch and is fine now. Sure, there were a few annoying, kitting little bastards, but I didn't really care, and now I still see many archers who have no problem to get dozens of frags.
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Offline Adamar

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2012, 12:40:06 am »
0
I'll say it again.

The simplest solution a month ago would be to make 'heavy' archers the most efficient. Increase the weight tolerance to 30 or more, so that using medium armor and weapons wouldn't affect our archery at all. This way, fighting in melee as an archer would simply be more fruitfull than kiting + armor would let you survive better in an archer duel, and people would make the sane choice of changing builds. No need to nerf or remove anything and kiting would become less and less used. Madness over, only noobs would whine for not being able to beat a weaker build in melee.

Offline Warcat

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2012, 12:49:08 am »
+6
Well, you people can continue to argue and complain about this and that and various other things that "ruin" your game experience, I'll continue to throw masterwork stones and use unbreakable practice shields and not be bothered by any of it.

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Offline Dexxtaa

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2012, 01:01:43 am »
0
The root of all misery in cRPG

Oh oh I know this one.

I'll take "Begs the question" for 200 dollars.
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Offline San

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2012, 01:19:30 am »
0
But currently with 8 WM sacrificing 6 wpf in archery you will get 67 wpf in sth else, so I don't see the problem.

From my perspective archery was fine before patch and is fine now. Sure, there were a few annoying, kitting little bastards, but I didn't really care, and now I still see many archers who have no problem to get dozens of frags.
8 WM is already a lot, I was thinking about those with 6-7, or leveling up.

Offline owens

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2012, 01:28:48 am »
0
I dont mind playing archer at the moment but honestly there isnt much point shooting heavy infantry.


People are going to have to stop carryin gso many arrows. For me x-bow is pretty balanced it is expensive (I know you guys are cash money and dont care), bolts take six weight :/, and the accuracy is poor. I only use it if im wearing very heavy armour or really want to win a round. Historically the crossbow was a brutal weapon and the church proclaimed that it was never to be used on catholics.


Archery was meant to a quick, frightening and very cheap way of slaughtering/surpressing your enemy. The problem is we dont have enough players for massive volleys (maybe 200 per team would do it) nor do people want to play what was historically a fighting unit that on its own was a well trained peasent.
 
Make bows quicker and arrow stacks a bit bigger and slightly heavier. People might (will be motivated to) only take one and judge their shots a little better or risk getting ran down and butterfly cut.
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Offline Strider

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2012, 01:33:27 am »
+2
Xynox this a perfect look at the state of archery atm. I'm glad there is someone smart enough to see it as it is.
I am not an archer but have played it in the past. I would never consider trying it again because of how bad it looks now.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 01:39:50 am by Strider »

Offline Miley

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2012, 01:42:33 am »
+1
tl;dr...

I think archers are fine right now (well HA is pretty weak).

Offline Artyem

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2012, 02:10:49 am »
0
I can't believe it's not a nerd storm!
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Offline Joker86

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Re: The root of all misery in cRPG
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2012, 02:58:00 am »
+5
Nicely written essay, and the stuff about the first four facts is perfectly right. But the rest, concerning your conclusion, is not. At least not in my eyes, of course, as I am in no way the measure of all things.  :wink:

And in general I'd like to point out that your thread is in no way discussing the root of all misery in cRPG. It's only discussion the old conflict between archer and infantry players.

(click to show/hide)

If an archer was constantly aware of his surroundings, and didn't allow himself to concentrate on a target until it is dead, it was close to impossible to reach him. Clever positioning, awareness and self discipline lowered the chances of infantry to reach archers drastically. And those traits are something I'd call a good part of what we call skill.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that you always do like the battle starts with an infantry player spawning close to an archer and immediately heading towards him. But that's not the case.
take away their kiting but give them a fair chance to be effective in return

The archer had his chance to be effective all the time UNTIL the point when the need to kite came up. Archers SHOULD get creamed in melee, that's the way the class balance should work. Though I have to admit that I think that archers are underpowered on the paper, concerning the values they are fighting which, like damage, missile speed, etc.. But the reason for this UP'ness is a completely different one. It has to do with the game mode an the developers trying to balance mechanics by tweaking effectivity. It has also to do with side effects which are not really part of the game itself, which in this case would be the popularity of the archer class and its special ability to exponentially gain effectivity with linearly growing numbers.


(click to show/hide)

I think you are asking a rather biased question at the beginning of that quote. Aren't those question the same that could be asked by a pikeman who is attacked by a hose archer? And why do you formulate your sentences in a way which tries to create the impression that archers do NOT have bows which allow them to attack any enemy they can see shortly after the battle has begun? Yes, you are screwed when melee starts, but you always try to ignore the entire ranged spam which took place BEFORE melee started.

You also complain that archers can't be good at melee if they want to be good at archery. But couldn't melee complain bout the same thing? You wrote that you need to invest quite some points into melee to be at least fairly effective. If you want to be really effective, there is no room left for any ranged capabilities, except of crossbows, perhaps, but in my eyes this is a problem which is related to te crossbow itself and with the upkeep system. Infantry HAS to have better chances of killing archers in melee than archers should have to kill infantry over range. If range has a 50% chance of killing infantry over range, infantry needs a full 100% chance to kill archers in melee to keep things fair!

Actually you can divide a fight into two phases: the ranged phase and the melee phase. We could argue a lot about the actual average chance values of archers killing infantry over range or infantry killing archers in melee, but there is one value we don't need to argue about: the infantry's chance of killing archers over range. For pure infantry (which is the vast majority of infantry and the kind of infantry we are talking about) this chance is 0%. They simply can't. Now if we keep the basic mechanics of balance in mind, if you change something on one side, you need to change the same thing on the other side.

If you claim that archers should become better at melee, the logic balancing reaction should be to make infantry better at ranged combat. But as this does not make any sense, the only option left would be to make archers worse in ranged combat. If we would go that far to increase the motivation to stay and fight infantry instead of running away to a reasonable value, archers should be at least almost as effective as infantry in melee. And as we already stated that we can't make infantry almost as effective at ranged combat as archers, the only option left would be to make archers almost as bad in ranged combat as infantry. As infantry has literaly zero effectivity in ranged combat, archer would be nerfed down to the effectivity of stone throwing peasants. I can't believe you would support actually removing an entire class form the game and replacing it by some kind of half-assed wannabe-hybrid.  :wink:

"But we don't need to go that extreme, some slighter changes could do the job", one could answer. Yes, the changes could be slighter. (Archer becoming only slightly better at melee and slightly worse at archery), but I doubt it would help then. I even doubt that making archers almost as effective in melee as infantry would help a lot. Because I doubt that good melee character statistics would encourage most archers to enter melee. In my opinion many archers, if not even most, decided to become an archer to NOT have to fight in melee. They are intimidated by the skill requirement of manual blocking, they are suffering bad pings or are simply afraid of the average melee capabilities of most seasoned infantry players. And the final possibility will always be that players simply prefer archery over melee because they enjoy it more.

My final conclusion is, that the game mode needs to change from battle (round based team deatchmatch) to conquest. That way the need of kiting would suddenly disappear, because the need to hunt archers would disappear as well. With that change, there would be no need any more to "balance" the kiting capabilities of archers with high item weight and bad fighting stats. Seriously, you need to fix a mechanics problem by changing the mechanics, not by tweaking the effectivity. Both changing the movement speed of archers or changing their melee capabilities is tweaking the effectivity and will be equally useless in fixing the mechanics problem we have. The only other problem I see would be the popularity problem which I mentioned above. But there are also ways to fix this without the plain and rather sad solution of lowering the popularity by lowering the effectivity.

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