Regular Bolts change to give crossbowman proper choice

[Angellore]

Introduction:
At the moment regular Bolts are simply useless. During all updates, balance team seems to completely ignore the fact, basically no one is using Bolts. And there is good reason why.

Current situation:
Let’s take a look at current situation. Right now crossbowman has a choice between:
Bolts: 0 damage, 15 (+1) ammo, 6 weight
Steel Bolts: 6 damage, 12 (+1) ammo, 5 weight
So current situation is to choose 3 more bolts or 6 more damage. Also Bolts are heavier than Steel Bolts. No wonder everyone is taking Steel Bolts, since 6 damage is quite a lot, 3 bolts isn’t big difference, and you will be slightly slower with regular Bolts on your belt.

Why to change anything:
I think having two proper choices available here is a great opportunity to add more options for crossbowmans. Changing Bolts stats would make this item an interesting option.

Proposition:
My proposition is to increase number of Bolts from 15 to 17. Also, increase regular Bolts damage by 1 point. And at last, increase Bolts weight by 0.5. So the situation will be:
Bolts: 1 damage, 17 (+1) ammo, 6.5 weight
Steel Bolts: 6 damage, 12 (+1) ammo, 5 weight
This kind of change will give people choice to have 5 more damage or 5 more bolts. Regular Bolts will still be heavier than Steel Bolts. This way bolts choice will be something to think about. Noticeable more ammo or 5 more damage, both choices will have their advantages.

This change will affect:
- Arbalest users: not really, since 13 bolts are already enough for them. Arbalest is very slow to reload, so most users don’t waste bolts, and wait for best moment to shot. Steel Bolts will be their choice anyway.
- Heavy Crossbow users: that would be very interesting change, since Heavy Crossbow don’t kill from 1 hit, and it’s 2 slots weapon like Arbalest. But it has much faster reloading speed than Arbalest, so having it, you will use all Steel Bolts before round ends. If regular Bolts had 5 more ammo, that would make sense to take them to maximize Heavy Crossbow advantage over Arbalest (reloading speed). So giving up 5 damage for 5 more bolts would be good option here, worth considering for sure.
- Crossbow users: crossbow is 1 slot weapon, so increasing regular Bolts ammo could give here good opportunity to use crossbow + regular bolts + 2 slot weapon. That would be interesting choice to have proper ranged and good melee char same time.
- Light Crossbow users: I think they will stay with Steel Bolts, since Light Crossbow lack of damage.

Upkeep difference:
I don’t really notice Steel Bolts repairs, since they are low anyway, but there is quite a difference here between regular Bolts and Steel Bolts.
Bolts: 13 upkeep
Steel Bolts 179 upkeep
I suggest to increase regular Bolts cost from current 193 gold to 641 gold, which is 1/4th of Steel Bolts price. Bolts upkeep will be 45 gold then. So Bolts will still have upkeep advantage over Steel Bolts.

Summary:
- Steel Bolts will have damage advantage over Bolts (+5 damage)
- Steel Bolts will be lighter (-1.5 kg)
- Bolts will have quantity advantage (+5 bolts)
- Bolts will have upkeep advantage (-134 gold)

Conclusion:
Making regular Bolts better, will give mainly middle crossbows users good choice between more damage or quantity. Maybe then we will see a bit more Heavy Crossbow / Crossbow users in game, since right now Arbalest + Steel Bolts is far best option and this choice is simply dominating. Adding possibility to use Heavy Crossbow + Bolts and Crossbow + Bolts will fresh crossbowman class a bit. Because right now this choice is just bad, Steel Bolts are too good to use regular Bolts.
This change will surely increase number of regular Bolts in game, because right now they are just marginal, very rarely used item. Currently, crossbowman don’t really have a choice between bolts, so please consider changing this situation.

[matt2507]

[Angellore]

More op? In what way? If there will be less players with Arbalests (which can 1 hit kill you), how can this make crossbows "more op"?
Did you read my post anyway? I never mentioned buffing crossbows in any way.

[matt2507]

when I say crossbow, I speak in general, not only the crossbow..

And I maintain that it will be equally op and maybe even more.
Everything you offer is to keep the same solution by adding ammunition and adding more damage.
Plus you then reduce the weight of steel bolts..

Finally, this is just a buff.

Knowing that the class of crossbowman is the only one wich allowing to one shot the quarter of players while being as efficient as a 2h in mele, i just say no.

This change will affect:
- Arbalest users: not really, since 13 bolts are already enough for them. Arbalest is very slow to reload, so most users don’t waste bolts, and wait for best moment to shot. Steel Bolts will be their choice anyway.
- Heavy Crossbow users: that would be very interesting change, since Heavy Crossbow don’t kill from 1 hit, and it’s 2 slots weapon like Arbalest. But it has much faster reloading speed than Arbalest, so having it, you will use all Steel Bolts before round ends. If regular Bolts had 5 more ammo, that would make sense to take them to maximize Heavy Crossbow advantage over Arbalest (reloading speed). So giving up 5 damage for 5 more bolts would be good option here, worth considering for sure.
- Crossbow users: crossbow is 1 slot weapon, so increasing regular Bolts ammo could give here good opportunity to use crossbow + regular bolts + 2 slot weapon. That would be interesting choice to have proper ranged and good melee char same time.
- Light Crossbow users: I think they will stay with Steel Bolts, since Light Crossbow lack of damage.

You said you even in your changes.
Reread this quote, you will see that there are only advantages and no disadvantages.

[Angellore]

You probably read random sentence from my post. And judging by this random sentence you got your opinion, having no idea what are we talking about here.
But then why do you reply at all? If you don't bother to read, just skip the topic. It would be better for everyone.

[BlindGuy]

OR, better solution: reduce the ammo count in Steel Bolts to 10, and increase their weight: Solved the problem for you, and did it in 2 lines of text and not an essay.

[Angellore]

Oh, cmon. It's not essay. It's proposition to make crossbows a bit more interesting, not to buff or nerf them.
Decreasing amount of Steel Bolts will be huge nerf to crossbows, and I don't think they deserve to be nerfed.
Anyway, this isn't topic about crossbow balance. It's a topic about Bolts which are completely useless at the moment. And since last patch almost all 2h swords were buffed ("to be equal in strength"), it's good time to do same with bolts. Make normal Bolts proper item, that's what this topic is about.

BTW: If people will use normal Bolts, then you will receive less damage from crossbow. Ok, I understand the guy will have more bolts, but it's not like he will shot all his bolts into you. With this change, crossbowman will have a choice to go for damage or quantity. If he will die before using at least 14 bolts, then quantity was a bad choice for him. But at least he had that choice! Right now he has no choice at all, every crossbowman is going for higher damage.

[BlindGuy]

Yeah cause 25% of archers use the item "Arrows" dont they?

[matt2507]

You probably read random sentence from my post. And judging by this random sentence you got your opinion, having no idea what are we talking about here.
But then why do you reply at all? If you don't bother to read, just skip the topic. It would be better for everyone.

you're right, I'll stop posting on this topic, I do not like when a moron take me for an idiot...

[Grumpy_Nic]

The big deal with the regular bolts is the very low price (193) & upkeep(13). So using those is the cheap/moneysaving way. Steel bolts have nice damage and you pay for that, quiten often.

I would leave the bolts as they are but maybe add another alternative, a third bolt-type.

For example:

"Iron Bolts" (couldnt think of anything clever now)
Weapon length: 68
Weigt: 5.5
Max Ammo: 13 (14 heirloomed)
Thrust Damage: 3 (8 fully heirloomed)
Slots: 1
Price: ~ 1500 Gold (105 upkeep)

That would be something inbetween the 2 existing bolt types, stats would probably have to be changed a bit to balance it. But anyway, it would add another item to the game which would be nice.

[Angellore]

How many people do you see using regular Bolts? And I don't mean by that people who has no idea about this game, but people with a bit experience here.
It's just too bad item to be used atm.

Bolts upkeep isn't really big deal, if you look at eg. Arbalest upkeep. You really think it's "money saving" to use Arbalest and regular Bolts? Like I said before, I don't even see this combination in game. Arbalest is so expensive, if you have money to pay for it, you will have money for Steel Bolts also.
Beside my proposition increases upkeep for regular Bolts only a bit, it won't be big deal, 45 gold is still low upkeep. The difference between current 13 and 45 gold of upkeep isn't big.

Yes, your proposition to add New Bolts is also fine, but that would require new bolt model, adding new item to game files etc etc.
And then regular Bolts will still be useless, every single person who knows this game will use Steel Bolts/New Bolts. So why to keep useless item, if you can boost it a bit to be useful?

Right now I see only one option for pure crossbowman, it's Arbalest + Steel Bolts. Using Heavy Crossbow + Steel Bolts has no sense, because you will use all your bolts before round ends. But since lack of damage (Heavy Crossbow has much lower damage than Arbalest), you need more bolts to make this item competitive with Arbalest. Right now using regular Bolts makes no sense, because they are too bad comparing to Steel Bolts, so no wonder everyone is using Arbalest + Steel Bolts combination, it's far best option in game. If there is a chance to change it, why not to try it?

[Grumpy_Nic]

I dont see many bolts ingame, but its good to have a cheap possibility. If you're broke and dedicated xbow, you can use these and still be a pain in the ass for your enemies.
For pure xbow man there are in fact 3 possibilities:

1. Arbalest + Steel bolts: everybody knows that (+3 Arbalest and +3 Steel bolts = 100 pierce damage)
2. Heavy Xbow + Steel bolts: Its a bit less damage, 2 body shots will still kill many targets. (+3 Heavy Xbow and +3 Steel bolts = 90 pierce damage) The good thing with this one is the much faster reload speed which means you are less stationary/vulnerable but still got a hard hitting weapon.
3. Crossbow + Steel bolts: Still able to twoshot ligth armoured targets, not for great distances. Either go with 2 slot melee weapon or 2 stacks of bolts if you prefer spamming bolts. (+3 Crossbow and +3 Steel bolts = 73 pierce damage)

Arbalest is simply the most common use, people are just lazy to try other things out. Xbow is the common side weapon but for dedicated builds it can be very effective because of the ability to reload it pretty fast. You might even compete with a longbowman with the right timing.

[Angellore]

I have crossbowman alt at lvl 31, and I don't really see Heavy Crossbow + Steel Bolts even close as competitive as Arbalest + Steel Bolts.
Yes, I know reloading speed is higher with Heavy Crossbow, but this mainly helps when you are standing open ground and reloading then (I do that rarely). Most of the time I stand in corner or behind/near some object, so those 2 seconds more of reloading speed isn't big problem.
Arbalest can 1 hit kill people, Heavy Crossbow can't. So having same number of bolts with those two makes Arbalest far superior weapon in my opinion. And since regular Bolts sux so much, it's not an option to take them.

It's not like I don't want to have three Bolts, one cheap, and two competitive. The problem is, devs won't add new bolts, because that would require a lot of work. I'm pretty sure asking for new bolts is hopeless. Same time, changing existing item stats can be done in few minutes.


Facts about upkeep difference with my proposition:

Arbalest upkeep: 1315 gold
Current regular Bolts upkeep: 13 gold
My proposition regular Bolts upkeep: 45 gold
So it's right now 1328 gold, with my proposition it would be 1360.

Crossbow upkeep: 733 gold
Current regular Bolts upkeep: 13 gold
My proposition regular Bolts upkeep: 45 gold
Again, difference between 746 and 778 gold of upkeep isn't even noticable.

[Robert]

I like the idea, and Nics third option

I would do one change tho, It seems to me that steel bolts would be a lot more heavy than normal bolts, even if there were more.
Saying this, maybe all arrows should be wieght reversed.

[Grumpy_Nic]

I have crossbowman alt at lvl 31, and I don't really see Heavy Crossbow + Steel Bolts even close as competitive as Arbalest + Steel Bolts.
Yes, I know reloading speed is higher with Heavy Crossbow, but this mainly helps when you are standing open ground and reloading then (I do that rarely). Most of the time I stand in corner or behind/near some object, so those 2 seconds more of reloading speed isn't big problem.
Arbalest can 1 hit kill people, Heavy Crossbow can't. So having same number of bolts with those two makes Arbalest far superior weapon in my opinion. And since regular Bolts sux so much, it's not an option to take them.

I personally would never take regular bolts either, the main reason is that I have +3 Steel bolts and they make every xbow much better.

I cannot say much about the difference between heavy xbow and arbalest, so far I've never played with a loomed heavy. But I just bought a +2 heavy so I'll try this one out for some time and can share my experience afterwards. Arbalest used to be a 1shotter, after the armor buff this changed a lot. It still does a shitload of damage but it is not as "reliable" as it used to be. Headshots are something else ofc, but even with a regular xbow these work.

I do believe that a players up to a certain amount of health & armor can be 1shotted by heavy xbow if you are not too far away and if you target approaching enemies to use the speed bonus.
But hey, I'm not complaining that I cannot instakill everything, its enough for me to deal a lot of damage, leave those you shot once to the infantry.