Still no fix for close-range 1H thrust bounces?

[Smoothrich]

says all the biased 1 handers... this thread has turned from a discussion about the 1handed stab, into a gathering of people compairing it to the 2 handed stab. witch in theyr eyes is godly... i  can tell you this people who turn stab with 2 hander can eazely be counter by a 1hander left swing or even if u move into it with abit of armor on it will glance and u get free hit. tbh non of the players i consider to be some of the best in crpg have been complaining about 1 handers.. next up there will be 1 handers in here who say oh u know 1 handed overhead is so useless to... common.

If you post saying 1handers are in fact NOT underpowered pieces of shit, but are actually pretty easy to use effectively if you learn what you're doing + shield for survivability making them a great melee class on par with 2handers and polearms (with easiest valor), you will get like 10 -1's immediately from people with little to no explanation. 

I don't think 1handers are OP or anything but they are balanced, and when people ignore the fact that you can use a shield with weapons in regards to weapon balance, you are really missing the entire point of having a shield.  You get perfect positioning for offensive attacks, escaping dire situations, and owning 1 vs 6s with little to no reactions or coordination but just slamming RMB and spamming held left swings in between.

I think most people complaining about 1hand thrusts, saying "right swing always glances" and saying "lol i r8p as 2hander EZ mode buff shielders" are usually just unskilled players with a poor perspective of different classes and playstyles.

[Vibe]

If you post saying 1handers are in fact NOT underpowered pieces of shit, but are actually pretty easy to use effectively if you learn what you're doing + shield for survivability making them a great melee class on par with 2handers and polearms (with easiest valor), you will get like 10 -1's immediately from people with little to no explanation. 

I don't think 1handers are OP or anything but they are balanced, and when people ignore the fact that you can use a shield with weapons in regards to weapon balance, you are really missing the entire point of having a shield.  You get perfect positioning for offensive attacks, escaping dire situations, and owning 1 vs 6s with little to no reactions or coordination but just slamming RMB and spamming held left swings in between.

I think most people complaining about 1hand thrusts, saying "right swing always glances" and saying "lol i r8p as 2hander EZ mode buff shielders" are usually just unskilled players with a poor perspective of different classes and playstyles.

This wasn't a discussion about 1h/2h balance anyway and had little to do with what you're saying in your stupid post.

[Smoothrich]

The thread like 4 pages saying that the 1hand thrust is impossible to use and all 1handers need major buffs, and when one guy says "hey when I play my 1hander I do pretty good the stab is just like other weapons stabs but needs extra practice" he got dumped on with hate.

Basically there is nothing to "fix" about the 1hand thrust except the OP needs to practice his footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making on what attacks to use and when.  Hell if you find the thrust to just not work for your playstyle, get a scimitar or steel pick or something and enjoy your pocket bec or katana at 100+ speed and learn to abuse left swings at facehug and right swings at range instead.

[Vibe]

The thread like 4 pages saying that the 1hand thrust is impossible to use and all 1handers need major buffs, and when one guy says "hey when I play my 1hander I do pretty good the stab is just like other weapons stabs but needs extra practice" he got dumped on with hate.

Basically there is nothing to "fix" about the 1hand thrust except the OP needs to practice his footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making on what attacks to use and when.  Hell if you find the thrust to just not work for your playstyle, get a scimitar or steel pick or something and enjoy your pocket bec or katana at 100+ speed and learn to abuse left swings at facehug and right swings at range instead.

I believe what most of the guys posting meant was that 1h stab is a lot less reliable compared to a 2h (or pole) stab. It bounces a lot more early in the animation and at the end of the animation. Yes it can be pulled off by good footwork, distance, timing and a hold. But 2h's stab is a lot more reliable and that is known to anyone who has a slightest clue about what is going on in this game.

[Molly]

I believe what most of the guys posting meant was that 1h stab is a lot less reliable compared to a 2h (or pole) stab. It bounces a lot more early in the animation and at the end of the animation. Yes it can be pulled off by good footwork, distance, timing and a hold. But 2h's stab is a lot more reliable and that is known to anyone who has a slightest clue about what is going on in this game.

This is certainly correct but let's look at it from this point of view:

There is a lot more mass behind a 2h or pole which is a pretty decent explanation for a lot less massive weapon to bounce on armor during its stab when not hit in the sweetspot.
I'm at the end of my 4th gen "1h w/o" and the stab is an awesome part of the arsenal offered by 1h-weapons but it's certainly not as spammy and no-brain as the 2h/pole-stabs... no doubt about that. 1h needs a bit more brain than the other weapons if you don't wanna spam the left-swing but try yourself on a more versatile and "nice-to-look-at" playstyle.

Making the stab "easy" would just remove overhead and right swing from a lot of people using the 1h weaponary.

LEAVE IT DEMANDING AND ENJOYABLE! 

[Haboe]

Get some practice, the rondel dagger (one direction stab wep) works fine with the stabs.

Here a vid of the rondel dagger vs a tincan (i have only 6 PS)

Clean kill, no bounce despite his armor.

[Molly]

Poor Vince 

[Pentecost]

The thread like 4 pages saying that the 1hand thrust is impossible to use and all 1handers need major buffs, and when one guy says "hey when I play my 1hander I do pretty good the stab is just like other weapons stabs but needs extra practice" he got dumped on with hate.

Smoothrich, did you not see his first post in this thread (http://forum.meleegaming.com/suggestions-corner/still-no-fix-for-close-range-1h-thrust-bounces/msg645740/#msg645740)? If he wanted to give people the impression that he was coming here to offer an informed opinion grounded in facts in the way that Tydeus does and not transparently trying to troll or lobby, people would not be responding to his posts in the way that they did.

Basically there is nothing to "fix" about the 1hand thrust except the OP needs to practice his footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making on what attacks to use and when.

This is your position. I agree with you that some of the bounces being reported here are probably due to poor execution or other faults on the part of the person wielding the weapon rather than the weapon itself, however

(click to show/hide)

Fighting somebody with 7-8 ath who is constantly moving backwards and strafing makes is nearly impossible to land a solid stab.

I play more 2h than I do 1h. It is infinitely easier to land a solid 2h stab, even at very close range.

The 1h stab was amazing when you could spin it. You were guaranteed a clean hit, and the animation was very fast. The looser sweet spot didn't even come close to making up for that loss.

etc

Saulcanner, who is the #1 duelist on NA, a recognized authority on every kind of melee weapon, and almost certainly one of the best players not only in cRPG but all of Warband, someone who unquestionably has very good footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making, is saying that recent changes have done something to one-handed stabs to make them less viable than they previously were. I don't think you should just dismiss that out of hand.

I have no problem if you feel what everyone else is saying is nonsense--you are a superb player yourself, and you have proven on more than one occasion that you indeed have the right to tell most of the playerbase that the problems they are whining about will go away if they adapt and get better at the game--but you should at least consider what he is saying. Writing him off along with the rest of us is the Internet Swords and Horses equivalent of saying that Roger Ebert's critique of a particular movie is irrelevant because it is only an opinion and therefore no better than anyone else's opinion on the same movie, despite the fact that Roger Ebert is actually informed about the subject and your average theatergoer is not.

[Lactose_the_intolerant]

After 5 pages you havnt understood it's about the thrust itself compared to others thrust? Even a pike is more reliable close range then a 1h stab sword!

Haboe :

1 : that dagger is utlra fast and hard to see

2 : vincent kicked therefore he couldnt down block

[Haboe]

I only spoke for the rondel dagger.
In a few days i will finish my vid on the rondel dagger, ill show you its stab is good.

As a 1hander using a nordic champ sword i can safely say that indeed 1h stabs are hard to pull off, and come with the great risk of missing, bouncing off or being block-stunned. I only use it when i get the opportunity to safely land it, usually when someone kicks a lot.


EDIT:
Your second argument is BS... Yes he kicked, you are supposed to stab someone when he kicks, thats one of the best parts about stabbing...
The video shows that even vs a tincan if your footwork is decent you can land a stab with a dagger, nothing more.

[rustyspoon]

1h attacks have always been less reliable than 2h/poles. That's because of how glancing is calculated in this game. If the initial armor reduction brings your damage close to zero, you will glance. 1h weapons (especially swords) have a lot less initial damage than 2h/poles. Because of that, any kind of damage reduction (negative speed bonus, hitting early in the animation, etc) has a HUGE impact on 1h attacks. That's why MW weapons are such a big deal to 1h's. Anything that can help you overcome the possibility of a glance is big. That's also why as a 1-hander you need to rely on good footwork and held attacks.

The more damage your weapon does, the sloppier you can be in your gameplay due to the reduced chance of glancing.

As far as stabs go, you aren't going to get full damage bonus until almost the middle of the animation. Due to 1h's being short and having a really fast animation you need to have really good positioning and footwork to be able to consistently land stabs. It was made even harder after the change.

Previously 1h's glanced at short range. Now they glance at short and long range.

1h's have always been my favorite "class" in this game. They are much more interesting than the others due to their specialized animations. But they are overall inferior to the other weapon types and that's entirely due to their increased chance of glancing. 1h's SHOULD do less damage than 2h/poles, but that doesn't mean they should have a much higher chance of glancing.

[Smoothrich]

Saulcanner, who is the #1 duelist on NA, a recognized authority on every kind of melee weapon, and almost certainly one of the best players not only in cRPG but all of Warband, someone who unquestionably has very good footwork, timing, held swings, and decision making, is saying that recent changes have done something to one-handed stabs to make them less viable than they previously were. I don't think you should just dismiss that out of hand.

Warband isn't balanced around duels.  1handers have lower damage because they have shields, lower thrust damage or less mobility means more glances if you mess up a thrust.  Its balanced.  Thrust  starts a little to the right of your model too, but its hardly a problem.  I've played 1hander plenty and rarely glanced, and the shield is is worth 20 lolstabs in almost every battle/siege scenario except maybe "honor dueling" agi builds or lance cav.. more balance.

Espadas do like 30 fucking pierce on thrusts, more than any 2hander.  People like Hospitaller_Cain used to nearly 1 shot me with stabs and never glanced once for nearly a year of thrust abusing.  If you want a facehug attack as a shielder and think a stab would glance, there's no reason not to left swing instead anyways (held overhead good too).  Stab needs more space in comparison, but both are very fast and powerful animations.

[Zanze]

People like Hospitaller_Cain used to nearly 1 shot me with stabs and never glanced once for nearly a year of thrust abusing.  If you want a facehug attack as a shielder and think a stab would glance, there's no reason not to left swing instead anyways (held overhead good too).  Stab needs more space in comparison, but both are very fast and powerful animations.

This.

People just whine because they cant just lolstab as they do with 2h's or awlpikes. 1h stab is fine honestly, heavens forbid skill is somewhat required in a skill based game.

I'll repeat what I did in my last post, and probably get another infinite number of -'s. When stabbing, use proper footwork or else it will glance. If you are face hugging as many 1h's are prone to do when they stab, don't stab. Highlighting the "use proper footwork" part of that.

[Kafein]

This.

People just whine because they cant just lolstab as they do with 2h's or awlpikes. 1h stab is fine honestly, heavens forbid skill is somewhat required in a skill based game.

I'll repeat what I did in my last post, and probably get another infinite number of -'s. When stabbing, use proper footwork or else it will glance. If you are face hugging as many 1h's are prone to do when they stab, don't stab. Highlighting the "use proper footwork" part of that.

Problem is, a shield and 1h weapon only make one thing easier : you don't have to do the directional blocking yourself. Everything else is harder. You need more hits to kill, have less reach and need to block much more frequently, slower movement, can't turn into swings as much (and can't let them go either), you can only block sideswings from people in front of you, the stab is hard to land, the overhead is hard to land, the right swing is slow, the left swing is somewhat short and your attacks are delayed after blocking (which also slows down feints). In addition, your whole setup can go up to 3 slots (using a shield that can compensate for the aforementioned blocking angle loss is a good reason).


In 2010 when the game was fresh and nobody knew how to block this was fine.

[Spa_geh_tea]

Problem is, a shield and 1h weapon only make one thing easier : you don't have to do the directional blocking yourself. Everything else is harder. You need more hits to kill, have less reach and need to block much more frequently, slower movement, can't turn into swings as much (and can't let them go either), you can only block sideswings from people in front of you, the stab is hard to land, the overhead is hard to land, the right swing is slow, the left swing is somewhat short and your attacks are delayed after blocking (which also slows down feints). In addition, your whole setup can go up to 3 slots (using a shield that can compensate for the aforementioned blocking angle loss is a good reason).


In 2010 when the game was fresh and nobody knew how to block this was fine.

Agrees.

Don't forget kick blocking, crushthrough, axes, and hiltslashing negate the value of a shield.