Penalty with shield

[Torp]

Hey, does any of you guys know what exactly the penalty with shield is on the heavy lance?

What are the stats with shield?

Is tehre a difference between the penalty when on a horse and on foot?

[Torp]

100 views, 0 answers?

[Keltesh]

I know in native that penalty with shield reduces damage and speed by 35%.  I'm not sure about cRPG or if its different from horseback.

[Zergmar]

http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm
put values and experiment yourself

[SirCymro_Crusader]

Heres a brief outline.

2H wea[pons used on horseback = 25% damage penalty
1h/2h weapons used with a shield =25% damage penalty
1h/2h weapons used with shield on horseback=50% damage penalty]
Polearm is again around 25% damage penalty, due to using one hand instead of the power of two (well it was when i last checked for native and a few other mods,cRPG may have been changed)

[Canary]

Alright, so I'm not exactly sure what the penalty with shield constitutes, be it damage or speed (or both), but I do know that using any polearm with a shield slows it down by a large margin, in comparison with its natural speed (the stat listed on the item). Here is someone more knowledgeable than I explaining exactly what this entails within the context of a specific example.
As for the polearms with the modifier, I know (from what I've heard) that any shield-capable polearm above 150 length gets the penalty with a shield, which presumably means an additional penalty beyond the normal slowness.
And where your heavy lance is concerned, the fact that most of the time you'll be galloping around very swiftly means that any potential damage penalty it gets will be negated partially or wholly by the massive speed bonus to you'll get for moving that fast. Also, the animation for lancing on horseback seems to be the same as the one on foot, and just as fast as far as my own meager testing showed me.

Heres a brief outline.

2H wea[pons used on horseback = 25% damage penalty
1h/2h weapons used with a shield =25% damage penalty
1h/2h weapons used with shield on horseback=50% damage penalty]
Polearm is again around 25% damage penalty, due to using one hand instead of the power of two (well it was when i last checked for native and a few other mods,cRPG may have been changed)

Where are you getting this information, if I may ask? I've never heard anyone mention this before, and from having used every kind of weapon on horseback and on foot I'm finding it rather hard to believe. (aside from the 2hander used with shield penalty)

[Gondemar]

speed damage bonus may be the reason you didn t see the difference, no ?

[Canary]

speed damage bonus may be the reason you didn t see the difference, no ?

Well he seems to be saying that all polearms, even the short ones not tagged as having a penalty, receive a damage reduction when used with a shield on foot, which wouldn't surprise me, although from experience it doesn't seem like this is the case (not that my experience is all that judicial in this regard). Or did he mean when used on horseback? His post is kind of vague. Plus I may be confused when he's saying "1h/2h" as at first I took it to mean 1handers and 2handers, but I think he means the hand-and-a-half type of 2hand weapons that can be used with a shield.

[Penitent]

50% damage reduction for using a 1h weapon with a shield on horseback?  I've never heard of that.

I've never heard of any kind of damage reduction for 1h weapons...either by using a shield, horseback, or otherwise...

can someone confirm this?

[Canary]

Okay, after conducting some tests on this myself, I've come to the following conclusion: Polearm weapons above the supposed 150 length "penalty with shield" tag do not receive any further speed detriment compared to shorter weapons without the tag when used with a shield.

I tested this using an awlpike and a battlefork (both 92 speed, one 165 length, the other 142) counting how many thrusts per minute they could achieve with 126 polearm proficiency and no armor weight penalty to wpf. The averaged out thrusts per minute are as follows:
Awlpike without shield managed an average of 59 attacks per minute
Battlefork without shield managed an average of 60 attacks per minute

Awlpike with shield managed an average of 49 attacks per minute
Battlefork with shield managed an average of 48 attacks per minute

As you can see, the testing wasn't all that precise, due to the discrepancies between server ping and button clicking manually, but it's clear enough to see that the two weapons receive pretty much the same penalty to speed. Next up is testing damage, but it'll be slightly less clear due to the difference in length affecting the location of hitboxes and the way that the damage mechanics seems so variable in general. After that: Testing from horseback, which might prove extremely tricky.

50% damage reduction for using a 1h weapon with a shield on horseback?  I've never heard of that.

I've never heard of any kind of damage reduction for 1h weapons...either by using a shield, horseback, or otherwise...

can someone confirm this?

I'm fairly certain it's not for 1handers, and I'm also fairly certain that Cymro meant the 2handers that can be used with a shield used 1handed style, although, again, I'm not quite sure where this information is coming from, and I'm skeptical that they'd receive a double penalty for being used with a shield on a horse, but having never used a weapon like this for any extended time have nothing to base my skepticism on, other than lack of information.

[WaltF4]

Okay, after conducting some tests on this myself, I've come to the following conclusion: Polearm weapons above the supposed 150 length "penalty with shield" tag do not receive any further speed detriment compared to shorter weapons without the tag when used with a shield.

My tests show the same results. The penalty with shield modifier does not effect weapon attack speed. Using bastard weapon one handed causes a significant attack speed reduction and the reduction is the same for polearms and two handed bastard weapons. The increase in time per attack depends on the weapons speed and can be calculated using the following equations for attacks made with 1 wpf:

Time per attack for using two hands = -0.0124 seconds * (weapon speed) + 2.3368 seconds
Time per attack for using one hand = -0.0195 seconds * (weapon speed) + 3.257 seconds

I have posted on this topic before about polearms and about two handed weapons.

I did some testing in the Native tutorial to get accurate damage values (the dummies have no armor and therefore no damage variance) and found that the use of a polearm weapon with one hand yields an ~30% damage reduction compared to using the same weapon with two hands. With a 20 damage quarter staff, one handed damage was 17 and the two handed damage was 24. After modifying the item_kinds1.txt file to make the quarter staff do 100 damage, the one handed damage was 78 and the two handed damage was 109.

Interestingly, the quarter staff does not have the penalty with shield modifier and modifying the item_kinds1.txt to make it have the penalty with shield modifier did not change the damage results. I tried the same thing with a long awlpike in my single player game and removing the penalty with shield modifier did not change the damage the weapon did.

Furthermore, the trigger for the attack speed and damage reduction is not holding a shield but is using the weapon one handed, as one does when using a lance from horseback. So, I really have no idea what flagging an item with penalty with shield actually does or why is named what it is.

EDIT: accidentally posted before I finished typing 

[Cyclopsided]

Edit:
Just reference walt's posts. Read them thoroughly.

[Canary]

(click to show/hide)

My tests show the same results. The penalty with shield modifier does not effect weapon attack speed. Using bastard weapon one handed causes a significant attack speed reduction and the reduction is the same for polearms and two handed bastard weapons. The increase in time per attack depends on the weapons speed and can be calculated using the following equations for attacks made with 1 wpf:

Time per attack for using two hands = -0.0124 seconds * (weapon speed) + 2.3368 seconds
Time per attack for using one hand = -0.0195 seconds * (weapon speed) + 3.257 seconds

I have posted on this topic before about polearms and about two handed weapons.

I did some testing in the Native tutorial to get accurate damage values (the dummies have no armor and therefore no damage variance) and found that the use of a polearm weapon with one hand yields an ~30% damage reduction compared to using the same weapon with two hands. With a 20 damage quarter staff, one handed damage was 17 and the two handed damage was 24. After modifying the item_kinds1.txt file to make the quarter staff do 100 damage, the one handed damage was 78 and the two handed damage was 109.

Interestingly, the quarter staff does not have the penalty with shield modifier and modifying the item_kinds1.txt to make it have the penalty with shield modifier did not change the damage results. I tried the same thing with a long awlpike in my single player game and removing the penalty with shield modifier did not change the damage the weapon did.

Furthermore, the trigger for the attack speed and damage reduction is not holding a shield but is using the weapon one handed, as one does when using a lance from horseback. So, I really have no idea what flagging an item with penalty with shield actually does or why is named what it is.

EDIT: accidentally posted before I finished typing 

You are such an amazing person to have around, Walt, besides which you have saved me some time I reckon.

Penalty with shield modifier is -~30% damage.
Pole arms and bastard weapons when used 1handed [with a shield] are slowed by ~30%.
These are independent of each other.

Examples
 A pole arm with penalty with shield listed as a modifier means that it suffers both -~30% damage and -~30% speed.
A pole Arm with out penalty with shield listed as a modifier would only suffer -~30% speed.

It is for this reason that people use the Battle fork (142 length, 32 pierce, no penalty with shield) instead of the awlpike (165 length, 33 pierce, penalty with shield).
However, awl pike is still used more often due to that length being LOVELY. There are pros and cons to both


TO answer this question, this is why you see a lot of lancers put their shield away for a stab when they aren't being shot at. Faster and more damaging.

I'll gladly be wrong if it means i'll be right later. If this is incorrect, dev post please. I am only concerned that maybe the penalty to damage is not a full 30% and is a lower number. Confirmation needed.

From what Walt is seeming to say, the penalty with shield tag (the damage penalty included) actually applies to every polearm used with a shield or on horseback (except the iron staff for some reason) regardless of whether or not they have the tag listed on their item profile or not. Additionally, it doesn't seem to be the case that the penalty with shield stacks with the penalty with a horse, as they seem to occur due to the same reason, that is, holding the pole weapon in one hand.

[Cyclopsided]

Ok, So i am wrong.
What the hell does it do then? Well, this thread doesn't have an easy answer I guess and I'm gonna delete my previous post.
I love M&B not being exactly what it says.

[Canary]

2H wea[pons used on horseback = 25% damage penalty
1h/2h weapons used with a shield =25% damage penalty
1h/2h weapons used with shield on horseback=50% damage penalty]
Polearm is again around 25% damage penalty, due to using one hand instead of the power of two (well it was when i last checked for native and a few other mods,cRPG may have been changed)

After asking some people who know better than I do, I found out the following:

it's * 0.85 guaranteed penalty if you use a 2h/polearm on a horse or together with a shield...
 another * 0.85 if it's a polearm...
 and another * 0.9 if it's a 2h that can't be wielded in 1 hand on horseback

As well, the penalty for using 2handers that can be used in one hand with a shield doesn't stack with the horseback penalty, it seems, so the only reason not to use a hand-and-a-half type of weapon from horseback without a shield would be if you don't have any 1hand proficiency. On the other hand, this means that hand-and-a-half weapons are penalized less than other 2handers when used even without a shield.

Normal 1handed weapons receive no penalty when used from horseback.