Who is really the greatest european nation?

[Overdriven]

Says who? As far as I know the Mongol Empire had a relatively high degree of administration and central authority. The Timurids were nothing compared to the Mongols, don't worry about anyone mistaking those.

Thought I'd reply to this now. I'm reading Conn Ingulden and the follow ups to his Genghis Khan books. This one is based around his grandchildren, Mongke and Kublai, mentioned in the video. From what I'm getting they had a very high level of administration, ruling out of Karakorum. They pretty much made trade across their empire 100% safe and they took on influence from the Chinese administrative techniques. The empire eventually split but before that it was very impressive.

Nice little video on the Mongols:

Oops double post but worth it.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Mongol Empire was the greatest nation in Europe, during the short time it streched into Europe.
Besides the Mongols probably the Britmy old friends or something for ending the (known parts of the) single most amazing family line that ever existed.

[Fringe]

We're talking about one European nation. So saying it was Italy because of Rome is faulty. The present country of Italy has nothing to do with Rome. I mean you can say Italy was because of its past, but that doesn't have much ground to stand on. I posted Germany, I specifically meant chocolate chip cookie Germany, because in my opinion it truly was the most efficient country that Europe has seen. Also their Holy Roman empire history gives them a strong background, but like said before, that holds little merit in the present discussion. (The British empire and the kingdom under Charlemagne are also great countries of Europe, and the Spanish state that extended over into the New World also was a great nation. I do believe also that the government seen then extends to present day Spain, as well as the United Kingdom.)

Also to those who said the Mongol empire doesn't count, remember that once Genghis Khan died, his domain was divided into four areas, the Golden Horde being the Russian/European counterpart. Even so, that sect of Mongol dominance was not very great prior to the previous empire. It mostly just subsided into the Russian natives of that area.

[Dezilagel]

Iceland.

B'cause...

1: Yeah we're a country, yeah we kinda went bankrupt SO WHAT?! Oh global market why you heff to be mad?

2: Oh you mad now. Well have some volcanic ashes. Bam. Fekked all yer commercial flight up the bum.

Iceland managed to royally fuck over every major European nation while bankrupt and using stuff noone could ever hope to pronounce. Get Eyjafjallajökull'd bitches.

In short, Iceland is without question the mightiest modern Eurpoean nation.

Voted Christmas Island.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Also to those who said the Mongol empire doesn't count, remember that once Genghis Khan died, his domain was divided into four areas, the Golden Horde being the Russian/European counterpart. Even so, that sect of Mongol dominance was not very great prior to the previous empire. It mostly just subsided into the Russian natives of that area.

That was first after his son, Ogedai Khan, died, and even then it still sorta functioned as one empire, no one just gave enough of a fuck about the emperors wishes (which were mainly to just chill out in China forever).

[Overdriven]

Also to those who said the Mongol empire doesn't count, remember that once Genghis Khan died, his domain was divided into four areas, the Golden Horde being the Russian/European counterpart. Even so, that sect of Mongol dominance was not very great prior to the previous empire. It mostly just subsided into the Russian natives of that area.

It was but it was still largely centrally ruled from Karakorum and those 4 empires really only became independent states as it were later. Reading about Mongke Khan and Kublai Khan, Genghis Khan's grandsons, they ruled from there, though Kublai later moved to Xanadu in Inner Mongolia. Though Kublai initially fought a civil war with his brother, Arik Boke after Mongke died in order to become Khan. It was in this period that Kublai took the Sung lands in China, and Helugu took much of the middle east, including Baghdad where he put 800000 of it's 1 million citizens to the sword, pretty much for the hell of it. Those two forged their own Khanates in these lands by the orders of Mongke but they certainly reported to him in Karakorum at the time. The Golden Horde was more separate, largely because of distance.

[Abay]

Every option has its own bad and good times in history. It is a question like ''which color do u like most?'' I think.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

Every option has its own bad and good times in history. It is a question like ''which color do u like most?'' I think.

ORANGE IS SUPERIOR! YOU HEAR ME! HUR DUR ORANGE GOATS

[Oberyn]

Alexanders protagonist...if even that, was Darius. Also he wasn't inspired by vengeance, but with lust and at the beginning; national prejudice.

On a second note, I don't believe Caesar was ever inspired by Alexander. They came from two different cultures with different beliefs, views, etc. Napoleon on the other hand was a student of military history I believe. I don't know who his heroes were, but Alexander could have been on of them.

Pay no attention to darmaster, he's an idiot. Panos, despite his obvious bias, is totally right. Roman culture, military, laws, literally everything that made them a civilization, had greek origins, initially from the Etruscans and Magna Grecia, later from the conquest of Sicily, the greek mainland and greek Anatolia, not to mention the dozens of greek colonies spread around the Meditterranean . Of course they were not identical, and greek culture itself was an amalgamation of tons of different cultures, from egyptian to persian to babylonian. Even greeks themselves had different cultures depending on geographical area (achaens, dorians, aeolians, etc). And Caesar, like again literally every single general in the Roman period, knew very well who Alexander was and emulated him. Greek gods and myths became roman gods and myths, Hercules and Alexander being a huge part of the warrior mythos.
As for Alexander's empire collapsing immediately after his death, it completely ignores the entire Hellenistic period. The diadochi still ruled the vast majority of his empire. Egypt was Ptolemaic, i.e ruled by greek rulers descended from Ptolemy when the romans conquered it. It remained entirely greek culturally throughout roman occupation, like the greek mainland and Anatolia, you know, the nucleus of that little empire known as Byzantine (i.e: East "roman") that outlasted the actual romans by a thousand years.
There's a reason the term Greco-Roman World is used to describe the culture.
As for aqueducts being a roman invention that barely merits a reply, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueduct_%28water_supply%29.

[Panos]

and greek culture itself was an amalgamation of tons of different cultures, from egyptian to persian to babylonian. Even greeks themselves had different cultures depending on geographical area (achaens, dorians, aeolians, etc).

I really want to have this conversation with you and tell you why the Greeks were never influenced by none, but then I`ll have to write down paragraphs and I`m 2 lazy. 

[darmaster]

Pay no attention to darmaster, he's an idiot. Panos, despite his obvious bias, is totally right. Roman culture, military, laws, literally everything that made them a civilization, had greek origins, initially from the Etruscans and Magna Grecia, later from the conquest of Sicily, the greek mainland and greek Anatolia, not to mention the dozens of greek colonies spread around the Meditterranean . Of course they were not identical, and greek culture itself was an amalgamation of tons of different cultures, from egyptian to persian to babylonian. Even greeks themselves had different cultures depending on geographical area (achaens, dorians, aeolians, etc). And Caesar, like again literally every single general in the Roman period, knew very well who Alexander was and emulated him. Greek gods and myths became roman gods and myths, Hercules and Alexander being a huge part of the warrior mythos.
As for Alexander's empire collapsing immediately after his death, it completely ignores the entire Hellenistic period. The diadochi still ruled the vast majority of his empire. Egypt was Ptolemaic, i.e ruled by greek rulers descended from Ptolemy when the romans conquered it. It remained entirely greek culturally throughout roman occupation, like the greek mainland and Anatolia, you know, the nucleus of that little empire known as Byzantine (i.e: East "roman") that outlasted the actual romans by a thousand years.
There's a reason the term Greco-Roman World is used to describe the culture.
As for aqueducts being a roman invention that barely merits a reply, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueduct_%28water_supply%29.

hmm caesar emulating alexander? everyone emulated him? i really doubt about that, at least before he became dictator. because conquering gaul just to gain power and popular support doesn't remind me of alexander. same goes for others great generals; even if they've read about other battles (included alexander's ones), it doesn't mean they just emulated those. i agree about culture, as i already said, but i have to disagree on military and laws parts; rome brought in greece its political system, its institution and its technologies, but not the contrary. on the other hand, greece brought its way of thinking, bringing the man in the center of thoughts and not gods, which was really innovative (i'd like to add that there's no doubt that greece had been great, i'm sorry if i've shown so). but i'd like to add that it's thanks to romans if this thought was brought in europe. while on the other hand alexander couldn't manage to bring the greek thoughts to other lands; he had been conquered (as romans had by the greeks) by other primitive religions that made him deify himself.

EDIT: i forgot the collapsing part: what i meant is that the empire that alexander built had been divided, it greatness wasn't same anymore and it wouldn't have never been again.

also there's no need talking about culture, we all agree on that part, but i think we all agree that it alone doesn't make a nation the greatest

[Oberyn]

No culture is an island. To suggest greeks were never influenced by outside cultures is definetely your nationalistic bias talking.

[Oberyn]

hmm caesar emulating alexander? everyone emulated him? i really doubt about that, at least before he became dictator. because conquering gaul just to gain power and popular support doesn't remind me of alexander. same goes for others great generals; even if they've read about other battles (included alexander's ones), it doesn't mean they just emulated those. i agree about culture, as i already said, but i have to disagree on military and laws parts; rome brought in greece its political system, its institution and its technologies, but not the contrary. on the other hand, greece brought its way of thinking, bringing the man in the center of thoughts and not gods, which was really innovative (i'd like to add that there's no doubt that greece had been great, i'm sorry if i've shown so). but i'd like to add that it's thanks to romans if this thought was brought in europe. while on the other hand alexander couldn't manage to bring the greek thoughts to other lands; he had been conquered (as romans had by the greeks) by other primitive religions that made him deify himself.

Where do you think the Imperial roman cult came from? All roman emperors deified themselves. As for Alexander's Amun-Ra cult, it was merely an extension of the whole "son of a god and a mortal woman" mythos, specifically Zeus in this instance, which was repeated over and over in greek culture. Many powerful political figures and myths (especially Hercules) had that as an origin. Alexander had already begun his own deification before he ever stepped outside of the greek mainland.
Not sure how any of it was influenced by "primitive" outside influences (i.e pretty much identical pantheistic religions). The usage of the word primitive is particularly faulty considering egyptian religion had been around for thousands of years earlier than the greek.

[Panos]

hmm caesar emulating alexander? everyone emulated him? i really doubt about that, at least before he became dictator. because conquering gaul just to gain power and popular support doesn't remind me of alexander. same goes for others great generals; even if they've read about other battles (included alexander's ones), it doesn't mean they just emulated those. i agree about culture, as i already said, but i have to disagree on military and laws parts; rome brought in greece its political system, its institution and its technologies, but not the contrary. on the other hand, greece brought its way of thinking, bringing the man in the center of thoughts and not gods, which was really innovative (i'd like to add that there's no doubt that greece had been great, i'm sorry if i've shown so). but i'd like to add that it's thanks to romans if this thought was brought in europe. while on the other hand alexander couldn't manage to bring the greek thoughts to other lands; he had been conquered (as romans had by the greeks) by other primitive religions that made him deify himself.

EDIT: i forgot the collapsing part: what i meant is that the empire that alexander built had been divided, it greatness wasn't same anymore and it wouldn't have never been again.

also there's no need talking about culture, we all agree on that part, but i think we all agree that it alone doesn't make a nation the greatest

The Greeks were the ones who influenced Roman culture the most. The patricians ( the Roman aristocrats ) HAD TO be able to speak Greek. The Greek element is ubiquitous in Roman culture. However, the Romans weren't as fascinating as the Greeks; they didn't make any important discovery.

There is a popular belief that the Celts were more influential in Roman culture than the Greeks, however this is totally wrong; the Romans adopted the same important deities that the Greeks worshiped, even the Roman temples looked strikingly similar to the Greek ones. The Greek language was as important as literary Latin. The Greek way of life became the Roman way of life in the sense that the Romans would go three times a day to wash themselves in public bath houses, lived in towns, had an advanced infrastructure and also the old Latin alphabet was based on the GREEK alphabet

No culture is an island. To suggest greeks were never influenced by outside cultures is definetely your nationalistic bias talking.

They were never influenced by none because they had everything a nation needs.

Own language, own religion and own customs.

k thx bb.

and please set aside my "nationalism" it ain`t my fault that my country has the greatest history and culture that this world has ever seen. 

[Armpit_Sweat]

Btw, guys, why is USA not on the list?..

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