Author Topic: Better (?) economic model for Strategus!  (Read 753 times)

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Offline Elmokki

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Better (?) economic model for Strategus!
« on: October 03, 2012, 03:57:28 pm »
-1
EDIT: Sorry for the wall of text, I got carried away.

Yeah. I find the current economic model both boring and terrible for the gameplay since it encourages closing your borders. I do study economics, but this model is still pretty simple. It revolves around making fiefs actual economic agents.

Basically the idea is to get rid of completely arbitrary things like:
- Long distance bonus (It will still effectively be in with some changes, just because of other mechanics, not as an additional mechanic)
- S&D (Supply and demand will drive this system, but it won't be an arbitrary statistic)
- Any direct fief owner effect on prosperity (It will rise or drop depending on other things)
These will be replaced by actual supply and demand - at least supply.

The basic idea is that each good will be categorized to a category. I was thinking about luxuries (for example ornate carpets, diamonds, beautiful paintings), building supplies (slate, brass bars, iron ore) and basic goods (tents, mountain goats, dried horse meat). In economics terms goods of the same category are substitutes - but not perfect subtitutes of each other.

Demand: ie, selling crap
Instead of using the one price currently used fiefs will have separate demand functions for each good. Basically this means that what fiefs are willing to pay for goods is determined by how much of that particular good has been sold to them in the near past and how much of the goods of the same category have been sold to them in the past. There is a more drastic drop in prices if tons of the exact same thing has been sold in the past than there is if tons of an another good of the category has been sold, so while selling tons of iron ore somewhere may drop iron ore prices to the ground, there probably would still be profits - even if they're smaller - in selling slate. The fief income should also have a partial effect on the prices.

The price goods are being bought would be updated once per day or something like that. This is to reduce server load and make selling less confusing, but it could also be interpreted as markets just being imperfect like in real life.

There should also probably be some sort of maximum bought per some timeframe per category amount which totally makes sense. Even if fief is willing to pay top price for something due to extreme desperation, they still won't buy a million units of it.

Supply: ie selling crap
There are really two options. One is keeping the current system and renaming S&D to just supply and having prosperity increase the amount of stuff for sale and the selling price being settable by the fief owner. Alternatively it is possible to make supply behave kind of like demand and make the price set by amount of goods sold to compared to amount of goods produced - ie if no-one buys fief's product price drops and vice versa. I personally prefer fief owners being able to set the price though, but taxation could probably be used for similiar purpose.

Prosperity: How sales and purchases affect fiefs
Basically the idea is that a fief that is supplied with balanced amounts of every single good (which may or may not be same exact amount of each good) would grow very quickly in terms of population and prosperity while a fief with absolutely no inflow of goods would lose prosperity and possibly lose population. In reality I doubt any fief would get good amounts of every single good even if you reduce the amount of different goods by making some fiefs produce the same goods. Basically I would suggest that the growth of prosperity and population would be such a function that the mariginal gain from supplying a wider variety will decrease so that supplying 12 goods instead of 3 would increase growth the growth much more than supplying 21 goods instead of 12.

I would also suggest that population and prosperity are somewhat tied to each other. With low population prosperity gain is slower and may even drop somewhat if there is a big battle killing tons of people and if the population is high compared to the prosperity, prosperity will rise faster. It would also be possible to make constuction materials increase prosperity more than average and basic goods increase population growth more making specialized trading in possible. Alternatively construction items could increase PP production, primary use of which would now be improving armor and weaponry.

Fief income and taxation
I also mentioned before that fief demand would be affected by fief income. Fief income would come from sales. With a system where fief owner sets the price I would just allow fief owner to decide what part of the price he will take as tax. Fief income is the part that wasn't taxed away. I would like the system to be such that at 100% or near taxation the fief will drop the buying price very fast and thus make prosperity and population gain very slow thus making basically stealing supply and demand possible at the price of killing your fief. I would prefer to have the numbers set so that fief owners can have fairly decent taxation up for sales without hurting the fief though. Similiarly if you have a selling tax on player the demand curves would be calculated based on those.

The basic idea is that taxation hurts the fief growth, but if you don't go over the board with taxation the fief can grow and you can reap profits from it. There should probably also be a population and prosperity based tax for fief owners as an extra incentive to make fiefs big and profitable.

How will you guarantee this won't totally break?
All the functions dictating growth and prices should be such that they assume some invisible npc trade so that no fief will ever become completely empty or stop production completely (unless there is a 100% tax which probably stops production completely until taxation drops). The same invisible npc trade would also guarantee that no goods price will ever rice to a totally ludicrous amount. Currently in strat the soft cap for distance bonus is around 300%, but there is no hard cap. Thus I would say that something like 100-200 per good could be a hard cap of how much a fief is willing to pay in the ideal situation of it being completely starved for anything of that category and yet selling all the goods it can produce for great profit.

Scarcity
There just simply should not be enough production to make every single town in the world grow at a fast rate. With optimal distribution of goods in the whole world there should be growth, but it should be quite slow. Player action in factions would probably distribute goods strategically.

What do I hope this achieves?
I study economics and as primary thing I would just be interested in how this changes things in strat. I can't give exact predictions.

Basically I would imagine this encourages opening at least some fiefs for public trade since you need trade of both directions for fiefs to become prosperous and you probably can't make all your own fiefs grow - at least not fast - unless you get plenty of goods from other faction territory. On the other hand in the optimal situation you would probably sell most of your own production inside your own territory, but profits for that are probably pretty low so you probably want to sell it elsewhere or sell it to independent traders with a big enough tax. Pretty much all the short term financial gain the players recieve reduces the financial gain of fiefs.

On the other hand this would make trading less predictive. Currently you go to a low price fief and then travel as far as possible to a high price fief. In my system in general the market is harder to predict, but if you buy your goods cheap you should be able to make profit with some running around and looking for decent prices. In addition even if the distance bonus is removed, chances are that the fiefs that are near the supplier of a good will recieve that good more since if they don't price 1km away is the same as price 100km away and thus bringing stuff farther will give you a better price on it.

It would also encourage big caravans to diversify their goods a bit or visit multiple fiefs to sell their stuff.

What are the issues?
While it is a fairly simple system I could probably code some sort of a test prototype of, setting the exact parameter values for this to be balanced is hell.


TLDR: Fiefs gain prosperity and population from buying diverse stuff with money they get from selling goods. This also sets how much they are willing to buy of each good. No distance bonuses, but exotic stuff from far away lands tends to be pretty expensive due to how prices are determined.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 04:02:23 pm by Elmokki »

Offline Haboe

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Re: Better (?) economic model for Strategus!
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 04:05:55 pm »
0

Yeah. I find the current economic model both boring and terrible for the gameplay since it encourages closing your borders. I do study economics, but this model is still pretty simple. It revolves around making fiefs actual economic agents.

Basically the idea is to get rid of completely arbitrary things like:
- Long distance bonus (It will still effectively be in with some changes, just because of other mechanics, not as an additional mechanic)

The whole distance bonus prevent ppl from closing their borders. You need to trade with allies for a good bonus, trading in your own little territory is a waste of S&D.
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Offline Elmokki

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Re: Better (?) economic model for Strategus!
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 04:32:10 pm »
0
The whole distance bonus prevent ppl from closing their borders. You need to trade with allies for a good bonus, trading in your own little territory is a waste of S&D.

Distance bonus isn't bad per se even though it is arbitrary. I just listed it since this model would make it redundant by making demand just raise the prices to compensate.

Also current system encourages closing your borders. You should only let in people with whom you have carefully planned trading agreements. Goal of this system is to make it so that you profit indirectly from having as many people as possible coming to sell their stuff at your fiefs or some of them that you want to become more prosperous so opening at least parts of your territory to traders may be a great idea.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 04:35:20 pm by Elmokki »

Offline PhantomZero

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Re: Better (?) economic model for Strategus!
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 05:48:05 pm »
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Also current system encourages closing your borders. You should only let in people with whom you have carefully planned trading agreements. Goal of this system is to make it so that you profit indirectly from having as many people as possible coming to sell their stuff at your fiefs or some of them that you want to become more prosperous so opening at least parts of your territory to traders may be a great idea.

The current system benefits open borders just fine, it is just people would rather invest in arms and armor as opposed to prosperity, and obviously anyone who is making money buying and selling at your villages means you are losing money.
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Offline Spa_geh_tea

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Re: Better (?) economic model for Strategus!
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 07:13:57 pm »
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Seems easily abused......too easy that one clan can drive their prices between adjacent fiefs to make tons of money.

According chadz he wants big battles and lots of them.

Perhaps a system that provides little benefit to the player but huge benefits to the fief.

Trade of lots of goods and types increases prosperity. Prosperty means more npc villagers. More npc villagers means more money from taxes. Fief owners have to balance tax vrs villagers happiness. Their happiness can be improved through prosperity and through building gardens/homes/bars/schools and shit......sound familiar, stronghold?

This system focuses on infrastructure of a fief. You all think.....Damn that's so unfair to clannless folk. Well there is always player to player interaction to pay caravan groups.

The game would be much more focused and less dependant on individual efforts of taking 2day journeys to become personally wealthy.

This new system would also invoke trade or war over resources types to progress a Fief.

Offline Elmokki

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Re: Better (?) economic model for Strategus!
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 10:36:16 pm »
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Seems easily abused......too easy that one clan can drive their prices between adjacent fiefs to make tons of money.

Every single thing that raises prices sharply would also be very bad for the fief itself. Also unless you were sacrificing a very high prosperity fief you wouldn't get very rich because the amount they would be willing to buy with mega prices would be fairly low.

I mean, if you produce onions next to your cash cow fief and want to make onions expensive without killing the fief you would have to bring some substitute from further away for a while and sell it with lower profit.

Offline dodnet

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Re: Better (?) economic model for Strategus!
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2012, 11:04:31 am »
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Clans should be forced to let independent traders or other clans in their territory. ATM half of the bigger clans are closing their borders because of "S&D terrorism" (stupid name btw).
The logic of war seems to be that if a belligerent can fight he will fight.

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Offline Elmokki

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Re: Better (?) economic model for Strategus!
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 11:49:35 am »
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Clans should be forced to let independent traders or other clans in their territory. ATM half of the bigger clans are closing their borders because of "S&D terrorism" (stupid name btw).

Forcing things is general is bad. It's better to give great incentives to open at least some fiefs to free trading. In my model the idea is that the volume of trading correlates heavily with the growth of towns and growth of towns correlates heavily with income you get from them: passive non-trade taxation based on size and prosperity and obviously higher volume of trade tends to result in more trade taxes too.

For short term gains mercantilism might be a good idea and I see nothing wrong with that. Strategus just tends to last relatively long so that short term gain will cripple you if it's done at the wrong time.

I also realized you could make the extra profits from exotic goods (ie long range trading) more pronounced by making luxuries weaker substitutes to each other than other goods and possibly reduce their general demand a bit to offset it. This way luxury goods from far away lands would nearly always be guaranteed to fetch great prices.